SoutheasternOhioPreps.com

I wrote about this at length in 2008. And I made the following point.

The phrase that everyone is missing here is...."Selective Enrollment." Most, if not all, "private," "parochial," "charter," "prep," and "independent" schools can not only determine who they let in, but HOW many they let in. Thus, control the division in which they compete. For example; I believe that Youngstown Mooney has either state championships or state championship appearances in DIII, DIV, and DV.

Most, if not all public schools do not have this luxury. First, most public schools depend on the state monies that are attributed to each student in the district, so they want the maximum number of students, so their count is often a reflection of the number of students in the districts. Secondly, at no point, if they even could, cap a number of students coming into their buildings. They have to take whoever comes to the front doors and simply cannot be turned away. This is primarily the reason for competitive balance and open enrollment.

Furthermore, if a school is controlling their enrollment with say, staying under 90 kids, and they can offer "scholarship" to the area's best 15 basketball players, how does a school like Waterford, West Union, Trimble, Coal Grove, and the likes be able to compete?

Selective Enrollment is extremely unfair and it does need be addressed.

I'd love to see what SW could do if they got some kids back that has already left. Mullins kid from Burg, get Jalen Miller back to SW and playing ball, Truitt. Hey, the Dalton kid's dad was from SW, bring him in too. And with Shiloah, wow. I think they could have something for some of these "private" schools in Division 4.

But the Mullins and Miller kid is having great success at Burg. Truitt playing well over there, although I think Burg has 1 more year with Holden and then they fall off a tad. No reason why Burg can't make the sweet 16 again next year. Dalton has had a pretty good career at Minford. It's just fun to think about what could've been for SW. Burg is a powerhouse in baseball and football. SW could've been a straight up D4 monster year in and year out.

I personally have a different view of the competitive balance issue, and will share that I'm at odds with a lot of people on the matter. And I know the OHSAA is sensitive to the argument about public versus private, because their business is keeping 820 member schools happy. I'm not sure that's possible.

But I say that if you win a state title in anything, you should win it against the best possible competition, regardless of public, private, Catholic, Baptist, or Nazarene. How can you feel good about winning something knowing that the team you beat feels that the only team they have a chance to beat....is you? And vice-versa. It's true that many of the private schools have a different standard for enrollment, discipline, background, and participation, but the public districts used to have those same standards, too...and gave them up because the politicians told us we had to be inclusive to the point of sacrificing certain competitive and scholastic standards. Sadly, we blame it on the teachers, but it's not their fault. It's our own fault because we chose to let Washington and Columbus dictate how we run our schools. And we do this because they promise to pay for the inclusive agenda...and they never do. Am I right on this?

As to the issue of fairness...Hey, life's never been fair. The best team has not always won, be it private or public. Will the OHSAA ever separate the two...NO. And they won't because if they do, they're going to lose half of their membership and that would be a financial catastrophe. If they did separate the privates would say, "Fine, we'll run our own tournament the way we see fit." That, too, would be a catastrophe because you'd have such a watered down system that winning wouldn't mean anything. And when you did win, there would be those who would say, "Yeah, but they couldn't beat Harvest Prep, etc." So there would always be a question of just what your state championship really meant.

And remember this...there have been years when the publics won ALL 4 titles. And when that's happened I've never heard...not ever...a private school complain. Have you?

Can someone name every state title for any sport or gender in Southeast Ohio? I would say it would be a fairly small number when looked at from the perspective of state champions being crowned starting around 1922. Nearly 100 years, and I can only name about 15 off the top of my head. Portsmouth boys bball, Ironton football, Burg baseball, football, Paint Valley baseball, Waverly baseball, South Webster boys bball, Oak Hill boys bball, Nelsonville York football, Adena volleyball, (girls bball maybe), Westfall softball.

I dont count cross country, or track as team sports, IMO.

Vito Corleone wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:40 am I'd love to see what SW could do if they got some kids back that has already left. Mullins kid from Burg, get Jalen Miller back to SW and playing ball, Truitt. Hey, the Dalton kid's dad was from SW, bring him in too. And with Shiloah, wow. I think they could have something for some of these "private" schools in Division 4.

But the Mullins and Miller kid is having great success at Burg. Truitt playing well over there, although I think Burg has 1 more year with Holden and then they fall off a tad. No reason why Burg can't make the sweet 16 again next year. Dalton has had a pretty good career at Minford. It's just fun to think about what could've been for SW. Burg is a powerhouse in baseball and football. SW could've been a straight up D4 monster year in and year out.

Mullins may have attended SW for awhile in grade school, but his parents have lived in Burg school district since he was born. So he was open enrollment at SW. As for Truitt, wasn’t he at New Boston before his short stint at SW?

Yes. I'm just saying anyone that has ties to SW. SW really shot themselves in the foot when they tried to start football and it fell through. Lost a bunch of a kids, and I don't blame them for leaving

This so dumb!!!!!! Boys final 4 this year...DI 1 private school, DII 1 private school, DIII 2 private schools, DIV 1 private schools leaving 70% of the participants in the final 4s across all divisions being public schools. Next, girls state championships....DI public, DII public, DIII public, and finally DIV public> Leaving 100% of the girls state champion basketball teams being public schools!!!!! Sick and tired of this tired argument!!!!

Someone please enlighten me on how Africentric is a public school.

N2Hoops wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:13 pm Someone please enlighten me on how Africentric is a public school.

They are publicly funded, a new school was just built in the last 2 or 3 years by public money. Yet, they are a closed enrollment school that uses a (cough, cough) lottery system for student enrollment.

Private schools, transfers and open enrollment has made a mess ( not for everyone lol) of high school sports . No equal ground for the schools that rely on home grown kids . There is argument that this is the rules and these schools abide but it's the grey area that burns a gut check. So many schools RECRUIT INDIRECTLY thru AAU Coaches and alumni it's sickening .The OHSAA should step up and realign the divisions in all sports and get up to the changing times . The bottom line its the kids that are important . Throw all the private schools and schools with a high number of transfers or open enrollment into one division then divide the remainder in 3 or 4 divisions. I would bet there would be crying from one end of the state to the other. Everyone sees the problems but no one will step up and fix it . Come on OHSAA lead the way don't turn away !

Truth&fiction wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:27 pm Private schools, transfers and open enrollment has made a mess ( not for everyone lol) of high school sports . No equal ground for the schools that rely on home grown kids . There is argument that this is the rules and these schools abide but it's the grey area that burns a gut check. So many schools RECRUIT INDIRECTLY thru AAU Coaches and alumni it's sickening .The OHSAA should step up and realign the divisions in all sports and get up to the changing times . The bottom line its the kids that are important . Throw all the private schools and schools with a high number of transfers or open enrollment into one division then divide the remainder in 3 or 4 divisions. I would bet there would be crying from one end of the state to the other. Everyone sees the problems but no one will step up and fix it . Come on OHSAA lead the way don't turn away !

If you want everything to be "fair" then you can't throw every single private school into the same division. Not all private schools recruit.

GoJeeps42 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:22 pm I personally have a different view of the competitive balance issue, and will share that I'm at odds with a lot of people on the matter. And I know the OHSAA is sensitive to the argument about public versus private, because their business is keeping 820 member schools happy. I'm not sure that's possible.

But I say that if you win a state title in anything, you should win it against the best possible competition, regardless of public, private, Catholic, Baptist, or Nazarene. How can you feel good about winning something knowing that the team you beat feels that the only team they have a chance to beat....is you? And vice-versa. It's true that many of the private schools have a different standard for enrollment, discipline, background, and participation, but the public districts used to have those same standards, too...and gave them up because the politicians told us we had to be inclusive to the point of sacrificing certain competitive and scholastic standards. Sadly, we blame it on the teachers, but it's not their fault. It's our own fault because we chose to let Washington and Columbus dictate how we run our schools. And we do this because they promise to pay for the inclusive agenda...and they never do. Am I right on this?

As to the issue of fairness...Hey, life's never been fair. The best team has not always won, be it private or public. Will the OHSAA ever separate the two...NO. And they won't because if they do, they're going to lose half of their membership and that would be a financial catastrophe. If they did separate the privates would say, "Fine, we'll run our own tournament the way we see fit." That, too, would be a catastrophe because you'd have such a watered down system that winning wouldn't mean anything. And when you did win, there would be those who would say, "Yeah, but they couldn't beat Harvest Prep, etc." So there would always be a question of just what your state championship really meant.

And remember this...there have been years when the publics won ALL 4 titles. And when that's happened I've never heard...not ever...a private school complain. Have you?

I will debate you on this. First...

It is ok to disagree, lets not be disagreeable. Since the inception of the OHSAA, the OHSAA has had only two Commissioners, Directors, or whatever, and both are devout Catholics and both from the private side of schooling. I would suspect in their mind there was no need for any changes. Finally, after years of debating on forums like this one, JJHuddle, and others, there was enough noise raised that questions were being asked. And thus, open enrollment, and then competitive balance in order to make the majority of the 820 schools happy.

Yes. There is an argument that you would want to play the best to be the best. But, what most of us are saying that the decks are stacked against us. Back in 2008 and 2009, I wrote extensively about this, and I will use Youngstown Mooney again as an example. Back in 2006, when YCM won the state in DIV, it had nine division one prospects on its roster, so therefore, how does other public DIV schools, like Ironton, Wheerlersburg, Minford, Wellston, and so on compete? These communities will NEVER bare and raise nine division one prospects. Never. Again, the deck is stacked.

I will take it from your username that you are a Jeep fan. Then you cannot ignore that when South Webster won the state title in 2006, the Jeeps were a beneficiary of a transfer. The same for the Cavaliers in 2008, the Oaks in 2009. And although they are not in the Southeast District, John Glenn in 2016. Everyone of these teams, public schools, and the beneficiary of open enrollment and/or transfers.

Back in 2008, when I was writing about this and selective enrollment, I went back and look at just football alone. This is what I found out, the selective enrollment school only makes up 22% of the school total. However, since 1972, the beginning of the OHSAA, state championships were split down the middle, 50% to 50% between private and public. Now, that not even considering the number of selective enrollment schools that competed in regional finals.

And yes, when public schools win, no one complains. Absolutely. However, when does that ever happen? It ain't often. For example, this year, out of the 16 boys' teams in the final four, 6 are private schools.

Again, it is not really a matter of fairness, after all life is not fair; however, it is a matter of what is right, and what is wrong.

Chieftain2009 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm

Truth&fiction wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:27 pm Private schools, transfers and open enrollment has made a mess ( not for everyone lol) of high school sports . No equal ground for the schools that rely on home grown kids . There is argument that this is the rules and these schools abide but it's the grey area that burns a gut check. So many schools RECRUIT INDIRECTLY thru AAU Coaches and alumni it's sickening .The OHSAA should step up and realign the divisions in all sports and get up to the changing times . The bottom line its the kids that are important . Throw all the private schools and schools with a high number of transfers or open enrollment into one division then divide the remainder in 3 or 4 divisions. I would bet there would be crying from one end of the state to the other. Everyone sees the problems but no one will step up and fix it . Come on OHSAA lead the way don't turn away !

If you want everything to be "fair" then you can't throw every single private school into the same division. Not all private schools recruit.

I respect your thoughts and you may very well be correct but the ability to do so is present none the less. I know you have been close to Fairfield Christians and they have been hurt by transfer so that the other side of it . I think we can agree that something has to change on transfers and open enrollment and also private vs public.

Instead of separating the private and public schools come tournament time, here is an even crazy idea public schools could play tougher non conference teams and then I don't know play better or smarter than the private schools.

Truth&fiction wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:06 pm

Chieftain2009 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm

Truth&fiction wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:27 pm Private schools, transfers and open enrollment has made a mess ( not for everyone lol) of high school sports . No equal ground for the schools that rely on home grown kids . There is argument that this is the rules and these schools abide but it's the grey area that burns a gut check. So many schools RECRUIT INDIRECTLY thru AAU Coaches and alumni it's sickening .The OHSAA should step up and realign the divisions in all sports and get up to the changing times . The bottom line its the kids that are important . Throw all the private schools and schools with a high number of transfers or open enrollment into one division then divide the remainder in 3 or 4 divisions. I would bet there would be crying from one end of the state to the other. Everyone sees the problems but no one will step up and fix it . Come on OHSAA lead the way don't turn away !

If you want everything to be "fair" then you can't throw every single private school into the same division. Not all private schools recruit.

I respect your thoughts and you may very well be correct but the ability to do so is present none the less. I know you have been close to Fairfield Christians and they have been hurt by transfer so that the other side of it . I think we can agree that something has to change on transfers and open enrollment and also private vs public.

Every school in Ohio, to some degree, is afforded the ability to recruit. It’s not confined to private schools.

buckcraze wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:34 pm This so dumb!!!!!! Boys final 4 this year...DI 1 private school, DII 1 private school, DIII 2 private schools, DIV 1 private schools leaving 70% of the participants in the final 4s across all divisions being public schools. Next, girls state championships....DI public, DII public, DIII public, and finally DIV public> Leaving 100% of the girls state champion basketball teams being public schools!!!!! Sick and tired of this tired argument!!!!

A rare year. Private wins over 50% of state titles. Its not fair to publics. exsp rural areas

What is a state title? Does it actually mean anything? These are high school kids learning life skills. If you never win one, does it invalidate your hard work?

efarns wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:25 am What is a state title? Does it actually mean anything? These are high school kids learning life skills. If you never win one, does it invalidate your hard work?

I have made this point many times on threads like this. My two kids played in 4 final 4s between them. My son lost in the semi-finals to eventual champ Georgetown in 07 by a point in a game that had so many weird things in it that it should be an episode of the Twilight Zone. My daughter got all the way to the championship game 3 times. Lost as a frosh to Africentric. Had an 18 point lead at half and lost by 7. Lost as a soph to HP (who later had to vacate that championship due to violations). Game was tied with a minute to go and our senior laden team made a half-dozen panicky mistakes in that time and lost by 4. Lost as a senior to Arlington - whose star had 0 points at half, but two girls who averaged 5 ppg between them had 21. My daughter's team executed the game plan almost perfectly and still lost by double digits. Arlington had their own plan, and just didn't want to cooperate with our plan. Lol.

I can barely get either of them to go to a game anymore when they are home. All of those medals and trophies are in boxes in my basement collecting dust. They don't want it or really care about it. They moved on to adulthood and it's just not that important anymore.

I think a healthy perspective is this: When they were playing, I told them that if they are practicing or playing a game, that is the most important thing in the world, and that they should give it their full attention, focus, and effort. But the minute its over, there are millions of things more important. And then appreciating what HS sports greatest value is, it is in teaching life skills. My kids were taught through basketball that if they are on time, they are late. They show up for work to this day 15-30 minutes early - and their employers love them for it. Good habits like that have way more value than what medal or trophy they won.

So, when we talk about competitive balance, I would like to see us deal with it in that context. Competing for a state championship is a big deal, so not saying it has no importance - but the things kids take with them into adulthood from participating in wins and losses, is of far greater importance.

TVC wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:58 am

buckcraze wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:34 pm This so dumb!!!!!! Boys final 4 this year...DI 1 private school, DII 1 private school, DIII 2 private schools, DIV 1 private schools leaving 70% of the participants in the final 4s across all divisions being public schools. Next, girls state championships....DI public, DII public, DIII public, and finally DIV public> Leaving 100% of the girls state champion basketball teams being public schools!!!!! Sick and tired of this tired argument!!!!

A rare year. Private wins over 50% of state titles. Its not fair to publics. exsp rural areas

Not sure about what is "fair", or if that is something I would want to pursue, given that when my kids complained about something being unfair, I told them to get used to it. If life were fair, I'd have hair, have 6 pack abs, and be as good looking as the rest of you. But it is what it is.

That said, we do want to see some degree of fairness in our sporting events. It detracts from the enjoyment of sports if there is some inherent unfairness in it.

I think there is something to this being more of an urban/rural issue than a public/private one. Africentric would be an example of school that is technically public, but who can attract/draw/select/recruit (or whatever term you want to use) kids from greater Cbus to their school. I'm glad AC exists as a school. Got nothing against the concept academically, but it does pose some problems athletically in a system that slots schools for tournament compeition in divisions based on enrollment. AC is fishing out of a very big pond, with a large number of elite fish in it, and a lot of the very best girl fish in that pond are finding their way to that school. We can take a private school like Ironton SJ. Smaller pond, less overall fish, and way less elite fish. At best, ISJ can draw kids from Lawrence Co, and maybe some from Boyd or Greenup Co's across the river, but the ponds are very different between these two schools. If their enrollment numbers are the same, the OHSAA is going to say that AC and ISJ should compete against each other - but we all know that is ridiculous - and the reason is because of the urban pond vs. the rural/small town pond. FWIW

IVCguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:50 pm

efarns wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:25 am What is a state title? Does it actually mean anything? These are high school kids learning life skills. If you never win one, does it invalidate your hard work?

I have made this point many times on threads like this. My two kids played in 4 final 4s between them. My son lost in the semi-finals to eventual champ Georgetown in 07 by a point in a game that had so many weird things in it that it should be an episode of the Twilight Zone. My daughter got all the way to the championship game 3 times. Lost as a frosh to Africentric. Had an 18 point lead at half and lost by 7. Lost as a soph to HP (who later had to vacate that championship due to violations). Game was tied with a minute to go and our senior laden team made a half-dozen panicky mistakes in that time and lost by 4. Lost as a senior to Arlington - whose star had 0 points at half, but two girls who averaged 5 ppg between them had 21. My daughter's team executed the game plan almost perfectly and still lost by double digits. Arlington had their own plan, and just didn't want to cooperate with our plan. Lol.

I can barely get either of them to go to a game anymore when they are home. All of those medals and trophies are in boxes in my basement collecting dust. They don't want it or really care about it. They moved on to adulthood and it's just not that important anymore.

I think a healthy perspective is this: When they were playing, I told them that if they are practicing or playing a game, that is the most important thing in the world, and that they should give it their full attention, focus, and effort. But the minute its over, there are millions of things more important. And then appreciating what HS sports greatest value is, it is in teaching life skills. My kids were taught through basketball that if they are on time, they are late. They show up for work to this day 15-30 minutes early - and their employers love them for it. Good habits like that have way more value than what medal or trophy they won.

So, when we talk about competitive balance, I would like to see us deal with it in that context. Competing for a state championship is a big deal, so not saying it has no importance - but the things kids take with them into adulthood from participating in wins and losses, is of far greater importance.

My wild guess is that 98% of high school athletes in Ohio will never play for a state title. 90% won't get within sniffing distance. Schools that perpetually compete at state level are complete statistical outliers. OHSAA Legislation that completely levels the playing field for this distinct minority of schools is not realistic.