The Right To Bear Arms

[Space Cowboy]

I know of alot of 40 and 50 year olds that are too hot headed and inmature to carry concealed.

[wink]

Those 18 year olds are highly trained individuals who are in combat. Not some 18 year old who just happened to take a C&C Class and now thinks he's Rambo on his college campus.

HIGHLY trained ? Obviously you were never in the military.

So are you saying the troops we have out fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya are untrained or under trained?

LOL... That's quite a leap from "highly trained" to " untrained"..... and no, I am not saying that.
I might choose to say that they are "adequately" trained with firearms FOR THE JOB THEY ARE DOING. And the word "training" is somewhat misleading. Their basic 'training' is to become PHYSICALLY PROFICIENT with their weapon in that they can better hit their target.... not WHETHER they should shoot the target in the 1st place..... that comes, as Fido said, from psychologically mature and experienced leadership.

[Space Cowboy]

There are some good conceal carry instructors out there but, sadly, there are just as many that will not take the time to explain the tremendous responsibility that goes with having a gun on your person.

[Boonedawg]

I have no problem with a mature 18 yr old carrying concealed. See it's all about personal responsibility. That 18 yr oold can fight and die for you but you would seee to it he doesn't enjoy the same constitutional right that you yourself enjoy.....that's bullshrimp right there. I actually feel that states and cities have no excuse for denying American's their 2nd amendment rights....period. Your CC permit is written into the 2nd amendment. It's the cowards that would usurp your GOD given right to self defense that whine about this subject. Sad excuses for American's in my opinion.

[kantuckyII]

How would you want them to bear their arms? Many states allow open carry but it is 'my opinion' this could lead to more trouble than might stop including having someone kill you to get your gun. It causes many people to be very nervous as well. I think it would be probably funny to see some people's reactions if they actually knew how many people around them are carrying concealed, everywhere they go.

We were taught in CCW license you don't get into an altercation. You are to walk away. It would be mighty hard for a lot of 18 year olds to do that.

However, GAHS, crime has consistently gone down in states that went to allowing CCW licenses

[kantuckyII]

From this site which includes their references used to gather this information:


Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives

A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.8 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."



B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.

* Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average.

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport.



C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.



Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection
Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful



Justice Department study:
* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

[Boonedawg]

2 months ago my best friends younger brother was jumped by 2 men with clubs....in his driveway. They used the cover of looking at a pick-up he has for sale to get close enough to attack him. Well they didn't figure on him having a 9mm on his person. This kid has concealed carried since his 21st birthday. Anyways, make a long story short the a-hole that hit him 3 times with the big end of a pool cue he had up his sleeve caught 4 hollow points the first one in the wee wee the 2nd one next to the belly button the 3rd stopped just below his heart and the last one through his collar bone. My friend was going unconsious and knew if he did he was a dead man. He spent 0 time in jail. So when you guys talk out your butt about no reason to carry...you are 100% wrong. BTW the douchnozzle scumbag bullet sponge....still alive. My friend is selling off all his 9mm junk and going to the .45 acp.

GAHS, you may not want to carry...but don't suppose to know what's best for the next guy.

[Boonedawg]

Washington state, and hell no the DA didn't consider charging him for a second. 2 men with weapons jump you on your own property with intent to kill....are you freaking kidding me. the first hit my friend took was about an inch below his hairline on the forhead and it took a chunk of skin clear to the bone 3 inches by 1 inch. the doctor was amazed it didn't bust his skull. the 2nd hit he took was from his jaw to just above his ear and 2 hours later it looked like you had drawn a line with a 3 inch wide sharpie chin to ear.....there is no doubt they were trying to kill him. I know the guy that was shot he's a druggie and fancies himself a tough guy....well he's a tough guy with no wee wee now.

Why do you equate someone legally carrying with someone on drugs and alcohol?

[kantuckyII]

If they man took CCW classes, he'd known that you can't shoot someone for being on your property or on your porch. However, had he entered his home, all bets are off and you could blow him back out the door. He 'should' have called the police when the guy made those threats. CCW wasn't meant to be able to settle an argument or being the baddest guy on the block, it's mean to defend your life or someone else's life from an imminent threat. In Kentucky, you can also shoot someone for trying to burn down your house or barn as well (not 100% sure on the barn now though as I live in the city and kinda let that get around me).

A year ago, I was coming back home from a fishing trip in the middle of the night. I was coming out a country road, by myself and up ahead a hundred yards there was a young man jumping up and down waving his arms for me to stop. Now, it sounds, sitting in your living room with family around and the lights on, like it's a no-brainer to stop but when it's 3 in the morning, you're by yourself on a deserted country road, you have to think for a second whether you really want to do that or not. I thought and felt like there might be something really wrong and I did stop, rolled down my window and ask him what was wrong. The man yells, 'NOTHING! and takes off running into the woods!' (apparently, a nut or something) Let me say, it felt good knowing I had a friend sitting on my thigh when I rolled that window down

[Boonedawg]

Actually sometimes PEOPLE are stupid. it's not so complex an issue as most folks think on the shoot/don't shoot issue. See the guy in your story could have locked his door. There has to be reasonable fear for your or your families life. There had to be something left out in your story that showed the guy had an alternative to deadly force. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

[kantuckyII]

but I suspect there are more people like me who have never felt even threatened let alone put in a crisis situation concerning me or my family's safety is at stake

Really? with that attitude of yours, I thought you'd face death on a daily basis

[Burg_Grad_77]

When he got to the porch, the man fired a shotgun through the screen door and killed the would be assailant and the man who fired the shot WAS charged and convicted. My mother worked in the court system at the time and told me about it. Sometimes Lady Justice is not only blind; she is stupid as well.

It must be a case by case scenario as to whether people are charged or not then. There have been a few people shot and killed while breaking into houses and businesses here in Scioto county in the past few months and no charges were filed against any of the shooters. One was killed after breaking into a house and trying to steal some items. Another was shot in the back while running away from the house and the other was shot while trying to rob a store with a toy gun. None of the shooters were charged and from what I gathered from the news stories only the guy being robbed was threatened bodily harm.

Personally I don't think any of them should have been charged. They were just protecting what was theirs from drug addicts trying to steal from them.

Another thing, I think we have kind of gotten off of what was said in the first post. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with anyone the qualifies to have a CC license and to legally carry a weapon. It is our right by law. I do have a problem with that happening on a college campus though.

[Boonedawg]

Why not on a college campus, seems to me it is one of the places that it may save a LOT of lives. You can't say friggin nutters don't gravitate to college campuses.

The only 2 places i can see being asked to not be armed is a bar or a courthouse. Both of those for obvious reasons.
Do any of you know if Ohio is a castle doctrine state? I know open carry is legal there with no permit.

[Burg_Grad_77]

The reason for a college campus is basically the same reason as a bar. You wouldn't want a drunk to have a weapon in a bar, so why would you want to have a 100 or more drunken college students carrying weapons while wandering the campuses on a Saturday night. Imagine what it's like at Ohio State during Michigan week and especially the day of the game. There are a couple hundred thousand people on campus, drinking and partying all day long ,if not all week long. Would you want even 1% to be packing a weapon. I sure as Hell don't. I don't believe any school, whether high school or college, should allow C&C on their campus.

Not sure about Ohio being a castle doctrine state.

[wink]

The reason for a college campus is basically the same reason as a bar. You wouldn't want a drunk to have a weapon in a bar, so why would you want to have a 100 or more drunken college students carrying weapons while wandering the campuses on a Saturday night. Imagine what it's like at Ohio State during Michigan week and especially the day of the game. There are a couple hundred thousand people on campus, drinking and partying all day long ,if not all week long. Would you want even 1% to be packing a weapon. I sure as Hell don't. I don't believe any school, whether high school or college, should allow C&C on their campus.

Sounds like they may need to ban alcohol from the campus moreso than the guns. :122246 :122246 :122246

[Westsider1993]

The bad guys are always carrying weapons. Why shouldn't we? What does it matter on the age? College kids? There are 17 year olds serving in the military carrying alot bigger guns than me and you can, try say a Abrams tank, and Howitzers. If you are legal and responsible and carrying concealed where is the complaint? You don't know it is even there. Before we had guns we clubbed each other to death.