Should all Private schools be forced to at least be in D4?

[Daniel Larusso]

Portsmouth West was in a state title game in 2002 against a public school in Kenton. Ironton was also in and almost won a state title game against Sandusky Perkins in 1999. By the way they were also public. So it can be done, and it will happen again someday.

Wheelersburg vs JFK in 1989

I know about Wheelersburg, Ironton, and Nelsonville's state titles in the 80's. I was just trying to give some examples that have happened within the last 10 years.

[Westfan]

I just don't understand why we can't change things to better the public schools chances and make things fair. After all, that is where our taxes go. We can't change rules that make it fairer for these kids because we're concerned about making it a little more difficult on a private school. These schools chose to be separate. The teachers, coaches, and kids that go there choose to go there. If making the playing field equal hurts them athletically, then they have options, like catch the bus in front of the house. After all, I thought most of these schools were founded for Religious and Academic reasons, not how many State Titles they can win.

Yeah beating these teams can be done, like West did in beating Ursuline and all their D1 recruits in 2002. That year the OHSAA instituted their control and swapped the brackets to set up an Ursuline/Kenton final, as West was on track to play Alter. A great West team did the unthinkable and ruined the OHSAA's big money maker game. So yeah, it can be done. But a great team playing legit D4 shouldn't have to play a D1 team in D4 (now D5) clothing like Ursuline or Mooney. It isn't fair.

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

i'm with you siderman.

[Orange and Brown]

I just don't understand why we can't change things to better the public schools chances and make things fair. After all, that is where our taxes go. We can't change rules that make it fairer for these kids because we're concerned about making it a little more difficult on a private school. These schools chose to be separate. The teachers, coaches, and kids that go there choose to go there. If making the playing field equal hurts them athletically, then they have options, like catch the bus in front of the house. After all, I thought most of these schools were founded for Religious and Academic reasons, not how many State Titles they can win.

Yeah beating these teams can be done, like West did in beating Ursuline and all their D1 recruits in 2002. That year the OHSAA instituted their control and swapped the brackets to set up an Ursuline/Kenton final, as West was on track to play Alter. A great West team did the unthinkable and ruined the OHSAA's big money maker game. So yeah, it can be done. But a great team playing legit D4 shouldn't have to play a D1 team in D4 (now D5) clothing like Ursuline or Mooney. It isn't fair.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR!!!!! You wanna be the best you gotta beat the best, End of story

[A-Town Big Dog]

I believe that private schools and or catholic/christian schools should be removed from competition with the local/public schools all together. ANY school allowed to "recruit" players should not be able to compete against schools who follow traditional rules and play the hand they are dealt. I know to a lesser degree that open enrollment between bordering school districts has allowed for movement of some talented kids from one program to another but, when schools are allowed to move a family and waive tuition to get a kid to play for them ( I personally know a kid in the Columbus area given this offer earlier this year for football) they should also waive their chance to compete against public schools for championships.

[JohnKnight]

LIFE IS NOT FAIR!!!!! You wanna be the best you gotta beat the best, End of story

Then why have 6 divisions?

[A-Town Big Dog]

If you think Ursuline is a legitimate Div. V school, then you have been smoking something.

Yeah, and I remember a Kenton team led by Ben Mauk that absilutely dismantled P West in the state championship game this decade. Kenton is public.

Division is based on enrollment, not talent level

You are correct sir, division is "based" upon enrollment not talent level. However when a school is allowed to manipulate the numbers by only allowing the most talented kids in and by bringing in kids from other areas it just isn't the same. Reality is a private school can limit their enrollment to any number of kids to fit any situation. I believe it is more than possible for a public school to have an exceptionable group of kids that are able to compete with the best of the private schools but, this is quickly becoming the exception not the rule.

[Orange and Brown]

I think this is all over blown. The private schools win a lot of championships, that is true, so here is what we will do. If you go to a private school. (Christian or other) You are not allowed to compete in high school sports.
If you really want to solve this problem then make OHSAA do it's job. They have overlooked every loop hole that private schools use. They turn a blind eye when private schools bring kids in. They are the ones who are supposed to be making sure the rules are followed.

[Westfan]

I think this is all over blown. The private schools win a lot of championships, that is true, so here is what we will do. If you go to a private school. (Christian or other) You are not allowed to compete in high school sports.
If you really want to solve this problem then make OHSAA do it's job. They have overlooked every loop hole that private schools use. They turn a blind eye when private schools bring kids in. They are the ones who are supposed to be making sure the rules are followed.

they don't have to find loopwholes. The rules limit public schools, which give free rain to the private schools.

like I said before, that beat the best stuff is bull. If your D5, and you get beat by a legit D5 school then you deserve to get beat. If you get beat by an Ursuline who recruit D1 talent but keep their numbers as a D5 school, then it isn't fair.

[boy of summer]

Siderman:

Great post.

The private schools have virtually no OHHSAA rules that apply to them, can control what division they are in, who plays for them and can recruit and get kids from wherever they want.

The OHHSAA rules are enforced primarily only against public schools, public schools cannot control what division they are in; in most cases, public schools have to play with the hand they are dealt and cannot recruit (at least legally as the private schools can under the current rules).

Fairness? I do not see it in any way, shape or form. Obviously, neither does the OHHSAA.

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

i'll second that.

[datchillicav]

I seriously doubt that ANY private school limits enrollment just to compete at a certain level in sports. I think they do it for reasons like lack of teachers, facilities, funds, etc. They DO recruit and they DO give scholarships though so it IS unfair. Anyone who argues that it IS fair is refusing to look at the facts.

GAHS4EVER stated that the majority of GAHS' losses in the playoffs had been to public schools. He is correct. They have lost to 4 public and 3 private. That's about 42% private. However when 13% of the schools in Ohio are private that is a large number. When 50% of those in the State semi's are private and only 13% of those in the state are private that is an indication of the playing field slant.

Think of the recent "dynasties" of H.S. football...
I would list Steubenville and Coldwater and MArion Local as public schools. other than that they would all be private. St. X, Elder, Alter, Mooney, Ursuline, Delphos St. John's are all private.

Since 2000 the state championships are as follows

D1- 6 private 3 public
D2- 3 private 6 public
D3- 5 private 4 public
D4- 4 private 5 public
D5- 3 private 6 public
D6- 2 private 7 public

Thats 23 private and and 31 public. So once again, 13% of the schools in Ohio own 42% of the state championships. If you take into account that the majority of small private schools(like Portsmouth ND and Zanesville Rosecrans) probably do not recruit, do not have budgets to offer athletic scholarships, and may not have facilities or exposure to draw top athletes and you take out Divisions 5 and 6 because of it, the numbers are crazy. If you only include D4 and up (the decent size schools with potential to attract top athletes and students) there have been 18 private and 18 public. That's 50%. No matter how you cut it the playing field is not even.

It is not realistic or even possible to have seperate divisions for private schools and quite honestly I would not like that if it were a possibility. IMO though there does need to be a multiplier(between 1.5 and 1.75) in my opinion. That would be a little unfair to the VERY small private schools but how many can there be? It would also not even the playing field in D1 which is dominated for the most part by the GCL south schools as well as St Ed's and Iggy. It would even the playing field for divisons 2-6 though and would be more fair to the overwhelming majority of kids and STUDENT-ATHLETES.

With all of that said...It will NEVER happen.

[eagles73Taylor]

Private schools do limit their enrollment! Examples of 5 students who live in a particular school district and also available a private school.

Student 1: Johnny, 8th grade single parent home government assistance. Johnny has been tested at the 2nd grade reading level and is identified with an IEP. He has been in juvenile detention and has a history of violence towards authority. Mother cannot afford private school.

Student 2: Susie, 7th grade two parent home both work just above poverty line. Susie is a below average student who participates in no extracurricular activities. Has been suspended a few times for minor things such as smoking. Parents cannot afford private school.

Student 3: Teddy, 8th grade, single parent home who works and above poverty line. Teddy is a below average student who is on the basketball, and football teams at his local public middle school, but no other extra curricular activities. He is considered above average in sports. Some discipline issues but nothing major. Parent cannot afford private school.

Student 4: Becky, 8th grade two parent home average income. Becky is above average student who participates in band and chorus. No discipline problems. Parents could afford private, but it would be tough.

Student 5: Tommy, 7th grade two parent home above average income. Above average student, participates in soccer and cc, and some other extra curricular activities. Parents can afford private school

Now ask yourself, how many of these students would end up at private schools if they wanted to and could find assistance? My opinion, 3, Teddy, Becky and Tommy. Johnny would definately not get a scholarship and neither would Susie! That is how they limit enrollment, a public school would have to take all 5 no matter what if they lived in their district!

[eagles73Taylor]

I should have added to my previous post but I thought it would get lost in there is the fact that I believe the problem no isnt public versus private, rather urban versus rural. Football is a completely different beast than any other sport. In other sports a few dominant players or a handful of solid players is all that is needed for a good or very good team. Football, even if you have a stud, Derek Roback for example, it isnt enough. You need numbers, skilled numbers on both sides of the ball.

[datchillicav]

Private schools do limit their enrollment! Examples of 5 students who live in a particular school district and also available a private school.

Student 1: Johnny, 8th grade single parent home government assistance. Johnny has been tested at the 2nd grade reading level and is identified with an IEP. He has been in juvenile detention and has a history of violence towards authority. Mother cannot afford private school.

Student 2: Susie, 7th grade two parent home both work just above poverty line. Susie is a below average student who participates in no extracurricular activities. Has been suspended a few times for minor things such as smoking. Parents cannot afford private school.

Student 3: Teddy, 8th grade, single parent home who works and above poverty line. Teddy is a below average student who is on the basketball, and football teams at his local public middle school, but no other extra curricular activities. He is considered above average in sports. Some discipline issues but nothing major. Parent cannot afford private school.

Student 4: Becky, 8th grade two parent home average income. Becky is above average student who participates in band and chorus. No discipline problems. Parents could afford private, but it would be tough.

Student 5: Tommy, 7th grade two parent home above average income. Above average student, participates in soccer and cc, and some other extra curricular activities. Parents can afford private school

Now ask yourself, how many of these students would end up at private schools if they wanted to and could find assistance? My opinion, 3, Teddy, Becky and Tommy. Johnny would definately not get a scholarship and neither would Susie! That is how they limit enrollment, a public school would have to take all 5 no matter what if they lived in their district!

I never said private schools don't limit numbers. I said they don't limit numbers to control what division they play a certain sport in. I am pretty sure that they have much more important reasons (like education) to limit enrollment.

[boy of summer]

Great examples eagle 73. I would be willing to bet that taking kids (athletes or not) described in your five examples is not something Columbus Desales (a DIII school) is faced with on a regular basis. If so, they choose not to enroll most of them. However, every DIII or whatever public school has to take these students if they live in their district and want to go to school there. Again, huge advantage private schools as they have no district, can pick and choose kids (athletes for example) and can offer scholarships to attend.

I am not picking on DeSales but they are a DIII football school with a lot of DI talent that they can select to admit. Public DIII schools have virtually no control over their division size depending on the migration of students in and out of their district and cannot recruit their talent pool. Likewise, they cannot offer scholarships to athletes to obtain their schools.

A private school education is a wonderful thing as the schools often have fewer problems, teachers do not need to teach down to a lot of their students as is often the case in public schools (which results often in higher ACT/SAT scores) and they have fewer discipline problems as they do not have to enroll every kid such as those in eagle 73's examples. Even though these private schools may have educational advantages, they should not get athletic advantages afforded them by the current OHHSAA rules as they absolutely can and absolutely do control their size and athletic talent. Seldom do they have down years in sports because they, like an earlier poster said, can go get a quarterback, point guard or pitcher if they need one from just about anywhere. A multiplier of some sort definitely needs to be considered to put all schools on a more even playing field.

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

if anyone saw youngstown mooney dismantle an excellent columbus desales team, i think they'd say case closed. i doubt anybody in the state can touch mooney. do they have an unfair advantage, ask the states that have public, and private state champions, in different classes.

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

need i say more.

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

2 schools down, 2 private schools that are state champions, starting to see a theme here.

[LICKING COUNTY FAN]

The state title games are nothing more glorified scrimmage games.
Some private schools have a large advantage over all other schools in the state with maybe the exception of Glenville.

Even those private schools have one advantage Glenville doesn’t seem to take advantage over.