Ohio Schools Vote 'No' On Playoff Reform

[kahn]

You guys really think private schools are staying below Division enrollment lines on purpose? C'mon. They're not getting tax payer money, the more students they have, the more money they make. The want as many students as possible.

I don't think football revenue competes with how much they get out of tuition. Even if it does, there are whole schools these private school admins are running, not just athletic programs. To read on here you'd think all they do is sit around thinking of ways to scam the system.

[Westfan]

Yes I believe they limit enrollment.

I'm curious how many of the private school give athletic scholarships? What's the rules on those?

[ChainMan]

Yes I believe they limit enrollment.

I'm curious how many of the private school give athletic scholarships? What's the rules on those?

None, That is the problem. It only takes a couple of rich boosters to enable a private to recruit the finest talent in the area. And they do not call them "athletic" scholarships. They use the defense that they are giving needy kids a chance for a top notch education. It just so happens that these needy kids can run a 4.2 forty and bench 300 lbs.

[Bleeding Red]

You guys really think private schools are staying below Division enrollment lines on purpose? C'mon. They're not getting tax payer money, the more students they have, the more money they make. The want as many students as possible.

I don't think football revenue competes with how much they get out of tuition. Even if it does, there are whole schools these private school admins are running, not just athletic programs. To read on here you'd think all they do is sit around thinking of ways to scam the system.

Absolutely. I personally know of 2 people that were told they could only enroll in a particular private school (Cincy area) if they played athletics. They were not taking "general admission" at the time.

[kahn]

I wasn't very clear with my last post and I apologize.

I have no doubt that a some percentage of administrators will do that. In the same vein I know there are some southern Ohio public school folks that will bend the rules to get kids from other schools to transfer to their place.

I don't think limiting enrollment is an epidemic though because it doesn't make economic sense in most cases.

[Westfan]

Different sport and a different state, but the same principal. Rose Hill Christian, outside of Ashland Ky, was busing in OJ Mayo, Bill Walker, and others not to many years ago for basketball. Wasn't until several of the girls started getting buns in the oven that they pulled the plug.

[caglewis]

I think the "open enrollment" rules made a huge difference for public schools. Forever, where you lived made NO difference in your eligibility to attend a Private school - if your parents were willing to pay the tuition and provide the transportation, then you could attend any private school you wanted. But you had literally to live in the arbitrarily defined geographical district to attend any given public school no matter the quality/options [or lack of] it provided. Now public school students have a little choice if their parents are willing to provide transportation.
For all the years I've lived in ironton [about 40] I've heard "Ironton recruits", "Ironton cheats" complaints to diminish the accomplishments of any given Ironton Fighting Tiger team. Of course those complaints only apply to ATHLETES, right, not musically or artistically or academically talented students - who'd want to "recruit" them? Good programs of any kind automatically attract, and parents of talented kids are of course going to be looking for the best opportunity for their kids
I get the problem and the public/private disparity - but I think public school "open enrollment" rules went a long way toward evening things up, and more rules will probably penalize the wrong people.

[Westfan]

I wasn't very clear with my last post and I apologize.

I have no doubt that a some percentage of administrators will do that. In the same vein I know there are some southern Ohio public school folks that will bend the rules to get kids from other schools to transfer to their place.

I don't think limiting enrollment is an epidemic though because it doesn't make economic sense in most cases.

The big money boosters at these schools are probably not much different than those at Ohio State. They want to see a product on the field. Faculty know if they don't do whatever to win, the boosters will pull the plug on the money. Not just scholarships, but the funds that build the buildings and pay the salaries. On limiting the enrollment, they'll just use the excuse that it's room or faculty size limitations.

[Westfan]

I think the "open enrollment" rules made a huge difference for public schools. Forever, where you lived made NO difference in your eligibility to attend a Private school - if your parents were willing to pay the tuition and provide the transportation, then you could attend any private school you wanted. But you had literally to live in the arbitrarily defined geographical district to attend any given public school no matter the quality/options [or lack of] it provided. Now public school students have a little choice if their parents are willing to provide transportation.
For all the years I've lived in ironton [about 40] I've heard "Ironton recruits", "Ironton cheats" complaints to diminish the accomplishments of any given Ironton Fighting Tiger team. Of course those complaints only apply to ATHLETES, right, not musically or artistically or academically talented students - who'd want to "recruit" them?
I get the problem and the public/private disparity - but I think public school "open enrollment" rules went a long way toward evening things up, and more rules will probably penalize the wrong people.

Just heresay, but I had a boss from the Boyd County area who's son was a very good player just a few years ago. He will swear that some inquired on whether his son would like to play at Ironton.

[caglewis]

But in that 'hearsay" case, the family would really have had to move to Ironton for the son to play here in OHIO - and there would have been State-to-State transfer and eligibility rules involved..
That's across State lines and does not fall under open-enrollment rules, so you're just taking delight once again in slamming Ironton based on hearsay! I've been hearing that same song for decades!

[Flatulence]

I would absolutely LOVE having 6 divisions in track and field. That would make us a D-II and we would no longer have to compete with those who are three to four times larger than our school. But we do not have that because we are not FOOTBALL! Poor, poor football, everyone picks on the fellers and it isn't "fair" to those public schools for those parents to CHOOSE to send their sons to a private or parochial school. AND, had the competitive balance thing passed - guess what - track and field was left out again! So, for me to even consider feeling bad for the football fellers ain't gonna happen!

I will say this until I die - until everything is EQUAL for all we do not need to do it. The idea of competitive balance was done because of one sport and one sport only - football.

Don't get me wrong i love football and attend a game every Friday night because i do enjoy it, but when people begin to talk about the unfairness of it all I just walk away. I remember the very first few years of the state football championships when Middletown Fenwick was in the playoffs with a losing record and went on to win the state championship - before the playoffs began they were 4 and 6 one year. How could they win a state championship? They played some stiff competition which made them better.

As a 62 year old coach I have attended clinics and seminars and listened to those who were winners throughout the years and learned. WHY would I want to listen to a loser or a whiner in order to become a better coach? Likewise, were i to want to be a millionaire i would go to millionaires and listen to them. How has Ironton won in the past? They work HARD!!!!!!! At Logan, way back, we played Ironton and Columbus Desales each year and after each of those games our kids were SORE! Those two teams hit and hit and hit and that happened because of coaching. If some parents wanted to move into Ironton to allow their son to play - so be it. The very same can be said of DeSales. I just do not get all of the whining, bellyaching, and crybabying about it. "Fair" will never be reached because no matter what that new "fair" is, it will be unfair to someone else. That is why I say - keep it equal in all sports with the same number of divisions and the very same dividing line. Why should one sport have six divisions and still have the audacity about claiming it to be unfair when not one other sport has six divisions?

[selonmc]

You're 62 years old, a coach, and on the internet you call yourself "flatulence"?

I'm not going to go into a debate about all sports should have the same amount of divisions and cut-off lines. As a coach I assume you are an educator and therefore know a little about statistics. So if you have applied stats to your logic and still come up with your opinion then so be it. I am not a mathematician, but I can look at the numbers: 5 starters on a basketball team versus 22 starters on a football team and understand why there are fewer divisions for basketball than football.

I do agree with you whole-heartedly with you about that it will never be a completely fair system. I'm not advocating change for the sake of "fairness" for all. I'm advocating change for "fairness" for the team(s) I follow. I've seen it "unfair" for these small public schools for decades and I would like to see the playing field tipped a little in their favor for a while. If that cheats some other subgroup of schools then I hate to be so cold hearted but so be it. Judging by how close the vote was on this poorly put together system it would seem I'm not that far in the minority. An actual well thought out plan will get voted in some day.

[induct chuck]

First off, I'm pretty sure that special ed students don't count towards enrollment anyways, as was stated above. Secondly, the private schools that dominate in sports are a minority. Most private schools are just like Notre Dame. They get decent talent and have good runs when they work hard, but the rest of the time they are mediocre or bad. Just because you have Ursilines and Mooneys doesn't mean that the schools like Notre Dame or Zanesville Bishop Rosecrans should take a blow. Parochial schools are being used unfairly as a scapegoat for what goes on at relatively few schools, which do include publics.

[86Tiger]

Sorry Chuck but the special ed kids DO get counted in enrollment. Why wouldn't they? They are students too!! That was a heartless thing to say.

Anyway, I have been watching ohio high school football my entire life. (I was the only child of a man who wanted a boy and my uncle coached...lol) At any rate, it has been the same thing for as long as I can remember (and I am 43) the private schools dominate the playoffs and the championships...why? Because they can RECRUIT and get away with it...period!!!!!

[induct chuck]

Sorry Chuck but the special ed kids DO get counted in enrollment. Why wouldn't they? They are students too!! That was a heartless thing to say.

Anyway, I have been watching ohio high school football my entire life. (I was the only child of a man who wanted a boy and my uncle coached...lol) At any rate, it has been the same thing for as long as I can remember (and I am 43) the private schools dominate the playoffs and the championships...why? Because they can RECRUIT and get away with it...period!!!!!

Sorry, I'll try to be more considerate when stating facts in the future...

OHSAA Bylaw 2-1-4:
Enrollment information used for classification shall be provided by the State Department of
Education’s Education Management Information System (EMIS) to the OHSAA. All boys and
girls in grades 9, 10 and 11 included in the school’s October EMIS report shall be counted for
enrollment purposes with the exception of students who are identified as children with disabilities
within the multiple-handicap category. The Board of Directors is authorized to adopt policy
for assigning students, who are not specified as belonging to a particular high school, to the
appropriate member high school and to publish the policy in the OHSAA Handbook and on the
Association’s website.

Which private schools? There are less than 15 who consistently win championships. The same can be said for public schools. And don't try to say that public schools don't recruit because in my time playing for Notre Dame, I saw one of my teammates get personal phone calls from the head coach of another school trying to get him to go there.

I went to Notre Dame. You would never hear anybody complain about how we only had numbers in the mid twenty's, or how we had players playing both ways and special teams (literally not stepping off the field during a game). We never played a school smaller than us. Most the teams we played were more than twice as big as us. I played two seasons injured, because there simply wasn't a second string at my spot. Our line averaged about 175 lbs. across. Most parochial schools go the same route. Smaller parochial schools that don't recruit have the toughest path to travel you can get in football. And you want to make it harder? The brand of football we learned was put up or shut up. I'm really tired of hearing all this complaining.

I submit to you that the we shouldn't be simply focusing on parochial schools, but on finding new methods to catch cheating schools, be it private or public! Cheaters are the most despicable, sorry excuses for human being that I can think of. I hate them just as much as anybody from a public school, but if the OHSAA can't catch cheaters, the private schools shouldn't suffer from some sort of penalty. To me that's religious discrimination.

[86Tiger]

First of all Chuck you said "special education" and it says "Multi-handicapped" are excluded, which is different from just "special education". "Special edcucation" is a broad term which includes the MH kids and kids who may just have learning disabilities. The multi-handicapped kids are kids that may have MR and/or physical disabilities or severe behavior issues. Most of these children are not mainstreamed and are in separate classes. Kids with learning disabilities are NOT excluded from the enrollment numbers. So it is not ALL special education students that are excluded. So if ya want to quote "FACTS" make sure ya know the whole truth before ya do.

As for religious discrimination...that is not the case. There are private schools that are not parochial or religion based.

As for catching cheaters...Well that is alot harder to catch them with private schools. Are there idiot coaches out there from public schools who try to recruit? YES, but it is a lot harder to do. If a kid wants to transfer from one public school to another then the parents have to move to that district or give guardianship to someone who does. Their home school has to release them. It is a big hassel. There are no school district boundaries and no open enrollment boundaries for private schools. A kid has to jump through a bunch of hoops. If a kid wants to transfer to a private school...it's no big deal!!!! No moving, no guardianship issues. They just go if they can afford the tuition OR ya got the school benefactors giving "scholarships" to needy kids...;) You could have all the talent in the area at the same school.

Ok you say that there are only 15 or so private school who consistantly win championships...EXACTLY THE POINT!!!!! How many championships do you think there are in a year. Duh! 6 divisions and 6 championships... Do the math!!!!! The majority being won by a private schools.

[BlindWhiteHat]

. There are no school district boundaries and no open enrollment boundaries for private schools. A kid has to jump through a bunch of hoops. If a kid wants to transfer to a private school...it's no big deal!!!! No moving, no guardianship issues.

Are you sure about that?

[induct chuck]

First off, I'd like to apologize for making myself look like a horses hind end on my previous posts. I just feel really strongly about this subject, and some times I don't think before I hit submit.

Everywhere I looked multiple disabilities referred to two or more impairments. For instance this could be a child with muscular dystrophy and blindness. However, it could also be a child with ADHD and a speech impediment. He could still be included in sports and still not be counted in enrollment, couldn't he? I'm not trying to be heartless, I honestly want to know. But this is really besides the fact.

I still feel that this is a topic of religious intolerance since most private schools are religious based. Even those that aren't religious are being discriminated against by being forced to add this multiplier to their enrollment. All of the private schools are being punished for what a very small minority has done. It's like saying that all Muslims should be locked up because a very select number of them are extremists.

I am by no means an expert on transfer rules with the OHSAA, but I have done a fair bit of reading on it, and from what I gather it really isn't any easier to recruit at a private school. Sure, they don't have geographical boundaries, but a kid transferring to a private school has the same eligibility issues as a kid changing public schools. As a matter of fact, there is a bylaw exception that allows for a student to transfer public school once without losing a year of eligibility. There is no such exception for private school transfers. There isn't a set of rules especially for private schools. They adhere to the same rules as public schools. The issue of scholarships is unrelated, because public schools offer free education.

You bring up a good point. Even though there are less than fifteen private schools that are consistently at the top, I just want to know why the clean schools should be punished? And the issue of cheating, I might add, goes far beyond football. Some schools are on the top across the board. I am sure that there are dynasties, but some of it is certainly suspicious. We definitely need to fight these cheaters, but all that I hope for is that the fair schools get treated fairly.

[86Tiger]

Well BWH I guess I was not completely correct on that and I apologize for speaking before I read it completely. But with that said it is much easier for a student to transfer to a Non-public high school. The rules are not as stringent. And now they have added more rules to stop the transfering of kids for athletic purposes to public schools. I know kids who one parent stayed in one district with one kid and the other moved to the new district with the transfering kid. It looks like the new rules will stop this common practice. While all students have some hurdles to jump it is much more regulated transfering public hs to public hs or even non-public to public, even down to them sending out private investagators to spy on families to see if they really live where they say they do.

I don't know what the answer is but I do know that the most public schools are at a disadvantage. Especially the smaller ones.

[induct chuck]

I have heard of public school kids being investigated for falsifying transfer information too. The rules are just as stringent for private schools as they are for public. And by the bylaw exception, it's actually easier for a public school kid to transfer than a private. At least that's how it is in THEORY. The only thing I can come up with is that maybe public schools are more vigilant and open with the OHSAA in transfer cases. Perhaps the real solution is for private schools to start being investigated more, and for schools to stop scheduling cheaters. That's all I can think of. I'd love to hear other ideas. Besides, a multiplier won't stop recruiting. It would unfairly penalize the majority and if anything force cheaters to recruit that much harder to keep up with tougher competition.