Should Wellston Keep Playing Jackson?

[loganlocos]

Orange and Brown--

As I typed that I knew someone would bring Logan and Athens up...

My only argument to that is they are a BIG school, and Athens is not as BIG as our numbers of males indicate...a lot of our male students do not participate in sports, or play other fall sports like soccer, golf, cross country and so on... our numbers always seem big, but the sad truth is we are like most other teams. When I played we were the 'Dirty Thirty', 30 kids including Freshman is not a lot. Are numbers growing at Athens, I would say we have some more kids showing interest in football...that being said

Logan pulls from a lot of areas.
In comparision,
Athens, NY, Trimble would equal close to Logan's pool of players...

I was sad to see the game go as I played in 4 Logan vs. Athens games with the '02 & '03 games being crazy good (6-0) and (34-30) with Logan pulling out Wins both times, but they were Athens vs. Logan games alumni were used to. The Dogs/Chiefs from the 70's and 80's probably smile to see those games were very competitive....

To answer your question, I can't argue on why or why not to play the games anymore, but it just seemed like a good time to add a different opponent to our schedule ...

questionmark -

You're a great poster and you were an outstanding football player.

But you're post above is just incorrect. Athens and Logan are both division two. Both draw from a similar number of kids.

I would argue that drawing the same number of kids from a LARGER geographic area is more of a hurdle than and advantage. It means longer drives for players. It means more kids can't compete until they have a drivers license.

Logan faces the same hurdle with losing kids to fall sports (the best QB in the freshman class is golfing, for example). It wasn't that long ago (10 years) that Logan only had 36 kids in the upper three grades. Our program has gotten better, and the numbers have improved. I believe the same will happen at Athens.

At some point, I believe Athens will be back on the Logan schedule.

[loganlocos]

To me it is like this, Jackson is in a tough spot. They are too good for the TVC and not good enough for the SEOAL. They will struggle in the league this season. I would like to see them become an independent, and scheduling more to their size. I know, I think they should continue to play Wellston but like someone else said, later in the season. Jackson as an independent, would be perfect, here is my example of schedule,

Week 1 - d4 Gallia or d2 Athens
Week 2 - d3 Waverly or d4 Piketon
Week 3 - d3 Vinton County
Week 4 - d3 Logan Elm or d3 Circleville
Week 5 - d4 Wellston
Week 6 - d4 Meigs
Week 7 - d5 Nelsonville-York
Week 8 - d3 Greenfield McClain
Week 9 - d3's Hillsboro, Miami Trace or Washington Court House
Week 10 - d3 Chillicothe (could become a great rivalry)

It is perfect because, they still have Vinton County and Wellston, that is two wins, and they can be tested by the rest without having a soft or hard schedule. And they avoid Ironton who is going to be good every year and Logan who is the biggest fish in the pond and they stay away from the stupid SEOAL traveling. Their longest trip with these schedule is 45 to 50 minutes. It is common sense.

Solomon -

There are three major flaws with your proposal.

Your first flaw is in assuming Jackson "isn't good enough" for the SEOAL. Jackson has MORE league titles than anyone in the history of the league, and not long ago were the league's dominant team. As recently as 2006 they beat Chillicothe (for their only league loss), and Chillicothe went on to the playoffs in Division II.

The 2nd problem with your proposal is that you assume every other school on your list is also independent.

All the schools you list for the second half of the season are members of another league, and the second half of the season everyone of those schools will have league games they are required to make. For instance, starting next season Logan and Chillicothe will play in week 10 every year, while Gallipolis will play Jackson, Marietta will play Warren, and Portsmouth will have an open dating (making it possible to play Ironton week 10 as a non-league game).

And the 3rd issue, is the sports beyond football. Scheduling for those sports will become VERY time consuming and difficult with a league to fall back on for the bulk of a schedule.

[loganlocos]

If memory serves me correctly, when Logan dropped great tradtion games with N-Y and New Lex in favor of teams like Lancaster, Gahanna Lincoln, Picktown and the like, the first year they lost every single non league game and were 0-5???? But then they hit the SEOAL schedule and ran the table and the logic presented at the time was the beefier non league schedule was responsible for this. No mention of all the playoff points lost by "overscheduling;" and some even went so far as to tell everyone else in the SEOAL that if they didnt schedule tougher they would get left behind.

GAHS -

I believe that Logan has left the rest of the SEOAL behind in recent seasons, just as some predicted. Part of that is talent, this years Logan class is one of the most talented in school history, but that isn't true of the last 5 classes that have dominated the league. All great kids, but not to the depth as this years seniors.

Logan did start that season 1-5, but included a loss to Jackson (their last SEOAL loss) and only 2 of the other 4 losses came to new opponents. Logan stopped playing New Lex and Nelsonville-York in 2002, adding Westerville South (and later Lancaster) and Pickerington North in their place.

The Chieftains lost to Lancaster, Chillicothe, and North by a combined 7 points that season. It was not FINISHING in those games (they were tied or leading in the 4th quarter in all 3) that cost them a playoff spot, NOT the caliber of teams that kept Logan out of the playoffs.

Logan is 2-4 against Lancaster but 5-1 against North. They would likely be only 1 or 2 games better if they had played NY or New Lex. Much of the change in Logan's schedule had to do with River Valley and Point Pleasant leaving the SEOAL.

I do believe that playing teams like Lancaster, Westerville South, Gahanna, DeSales, and Pick North HAVE made our program MUCH better. Trust me, after seeing Lancaster and Pick North, we have seen the biggest, strongest, and fastest kids we will see all season.

And more importantly, exposing our 9th graders and JV players to that level of competition has made BIG changes as well.

When our talent level goes down after this year, we won't go 10-0. But we'll still be very solid (as the JVs 21-0 win over Lancaster will attest) and compete very well in the SEOAL. And a large part of that is a credit to the coaching staff and talent we expose our kids to.

[camnott]

crazylegs

I agree that maybe the week the game is played could be moved around but I'm glad to see that someone else agrees that to do away with this game would not be the right thing to do for either team nor do I think either team would want to.
2OLD, go ask any wellston player if they would play jackson again this week if they could, the answer might just surprise ya!

[2old]

Cam,

The inmates do not get to vote. But ask those kids in week 11 if they lose out on the playoffs bt .001 if they wish they had played anyone they could beat in week one and i think the answer is yes. This Jackson game costs Wellston in playoff points, possible playoff appearance, possible home game in week 11, and in the number of kids in the seventh and eigth grade want to play football. Hard to build when you lose game one ALL the time. 19 years is not all the time. It just seems like it when you have lost for 19 years. Cam what pride is there for Jackson in winning a game they are "expected to win"? If this is the game that establishes pride in the Jackson program it could explain some of the recent problems Jackson has had in the SEOAL.

Gahs, as previously stated Logan has left the other football teams behind in the SEOAL. That is how you win 5 straight championships and go undefeated in the league for 4 years. That is Chieftain "DOMINATION".

[boilermaker]

I think there is a solution. This game since both want to play this game. This needs to be moved. Now before anyone from Jackson thinks I mean this would make a difference in the outcome most years it wouldnt. Just get it out of the first slot . This lossing the first game every year is bad for the kids. I know that if the table was turned ,Jackson wouldnt do it. I mean start every season with a loss.This game need to be moved atleast to week two or three. JMO.

[On the sidelines]

How come some say for Wellston to play Jackson on the 3rd or 4th game? What difference does it make, both teams have the same amount of time to prepare for each opener. And 2old you lost any credibility you may have had when you stated that Ironton is coming back to the pack. They just easily defeated a very good Wheelersburg team that probally will go deep into the playoffs. Jackson couldn't even get a first down against them. However, you know Jackson always plays a weak schedule.

[fat tony]

if it was on win and loses,n-y wouldnt play alex.who hasnt beat us in almost 50 years.

[ironmen1987]

Moving the game is pointless. As 2old said earlier, they aren't getting playoff points if they lose every year. I work in Wellston and enjoy the trash talking that goes on but Jackson will fill our stands regardless of the opponent. Our 7th graders trashed them and i think our 8th grade won easily so the future looks the same. I'd hate to lose Wellston because it is a rivalry regardless of what outsiders think but one thing i've learned over the last four decades is that change is a part of life. I will concede this one to you 2old....

[loganlocos]

if it was on win and loses,n-y wouldnt play alex.who hasnt beat us in almost 50 years.

A league game is a whole different story.

[questionmark]

Ironman 87-

You better believe that a Week I game vs. a Week VIII game is a totally different contest. By Week VIII, teams will have had ample time to prepare/play (evenly) I agree, but I know from experience that when we ran our Offense, our early games had some kinks, and as the season progressed we did as well...

Will it make a big difference their is not a magical answer that states if your (insert team name) would have played (insert team name) this Week instead of this Week a Victory would had followed...

To this day, I wish my '01 Athens Team could have played '01 NY's Team later in the season because we were a much different team later in the season then we were early... we fumbled on goal line plays, we had tons of miscommunication issues and we struggle to create team chemistry in that game, result was NY's 12th consecutive WIN in the series...if it were played say Week 6 or after, I feel strongly our team had improved drastically...

But that is the past and no one can change that, however if I were or knew some big wig involved in keeping this series going I'd show them the reasons for keeping the 'Tradition' going...

Everyone will have their opinions, but keep an open mind...

[ironman02]

gahs4ever,

I see your point about possibly overscheduling. You're right, it doesn't do much good to get pounded every week. However, if you can schedule a team that you can be competitive with most years, and they provide a test for your program, I'm all for it. Wellston could very well beat Jackson in the near future, but history tells me that if that happens, it will be a rare occasion. Nothing I have seen lately provides evidence to the contrary. If Jackson were to schedule a team that has a little more success and is a little more competitive, I believe that would benefit the football program. It's nice to start 1-0 and get those playoff points, but stepping up the competition will be more helpful in the long run. Things do tend to go in cycles. That's why I feel like Jackson will be back in the SEOAL title hunt in the future. However, increasing overall program strength makes the inevitable down years fewer and farther in between.


To those speaking of tradition and pride, I completely understand that. Jackson and Wellston high schools have been playing for nearly 100 years. You don't have that history without developing a heated and emotioal rivalry. For that reason, and because of money, the rivalry will almost certainly continue well into the future. I simply feel that both programs would reap more benefits from not having this game for the reasons that I have mentioned in my other posts on this topic. If the game is on the schedule, however, the kids will still get up for the game and it will continue to mean a lot to all of them, as it should.

I'm not calling out anyone individually with this, because I hear it all the time, but moving the game to a different week does not solve the problem. It may change how the season starts, but when it comes to how good the two teams are, it doesn't change a thing. It's not like Jackson takes a few weeks off and Wellston continues to play games, thus getting better from experience. BOTH team play the same amount of games, and for the most part, Jackson is playing better competition in the SEOAL, which should ideally prepare them even more. I guess I'm trying to say that Jackson isn't going to regress while Wellston progresses.

Just my opinion though.

[Keyser_sozeThrice]

To add a key statistic to this debate:

Jackson leads the all-time series 65-25-6.

96 official meetings

[Solomon]

To me it is like this, Jackson is in a tough spot. They are too good for the TVC and not good enough for the SEOAL. They will struggle in the league this season. I would like to see them become an independent, and scheduling more to their size. I know, I think they should continue to play Wellston but like someone else said, later in the season. Jackson as an independent, would be perfect, here is my example of schedule,

Week 1 - d4 Gallia or d2 Athens
Week 2 - d3 Waverly or d4 Piketon
Week 3 - d3 Vinton County
Week 4 - d3 Logan Elm or d3 Circleville
Week 5 - d4 Wellston
Week 6 - d4 Meigs
Week 7 - d5 Nelsonville-York
Week 8 - d3 Greenfield McClain
Week 9 - d3's Hillsboro, Miami Trace or Washington Court House
Week 10 - d3 Chillicothe (could become a great rivalry)

It is perfect because, they still have Vinton County and Wellston, that is two wins, and they can be tested by the rest without having a soft or hard schedule. And they avoid Ironton who is going to be good every year and Logan who is the biggest fish in the pond and they stay away from the stupid SEOAL traveling. Their longest trip with these schedule is 45 to 50 minutes. It is common sense.

Solomon -

There are three major flaws with your proposal.

Your first flaw is in assuming Jackson "isn't good enough" for the SEOAL. Jackson has MORE league titles than anyone in the history of the league, and not long ago were the league's dominant team. As recently as 2006 they beat Chillicothe (for their only league loss), and Chillicothe went on to the playoffs in Division II.

The 2nd problem with your proposal is that you assume every other school on your list is also independent.

All the schools you list for the second half of the season are members of another league, and the second half of the season everyone of those schools will have league games they are required to make. For instance, starting next season Logan and Chillicothe will play in week 10 every year, while Gallipolis will play Jackson, Marietta will play Warren, and Portsmouth will have an open dating (making it possible to play Ironton week 10 as a non-league game).

And the 3rd issue, is the sports beyond football. Scheduling for those sports will become VERY time consuming and difficult with a league to fall back on for the bulk of a schedule.

As with most schools numbers are decreasing. And I dont think Jackson in the near future will be competitive in football, so another league title is a long way away. So right now, they are not good enough for the SEOAL, they have been in the past yes by the number of championships they have won, and they will good enough in the future. Now, no.

I am not assuming anything. I know that some teams have league commitments, but I dont knows the ends and outs of each league. I know that the TVC has open dates in the late season, which for example Wellston plays Fairfield Christian Academy in week 8 or 9. So it can happen.

Again, it is not a clear cut schedule, it is just an example of something reasonable. Schools that could provide reasonable competition and while being testing.

I will go out on a limb and predict that Jackson will have only win this season in the league, either Portsmouth or Gallia. They cant beat Marietta, Ironton, Logan, Chillicothe or Zanesville. They will finish 0-5 to end the year. It will be almost the same as it was last year, 4-0 to start the season, the 1-5 in the last six, including losing the last 4. And this team is worst than last years team. And when that happens I think my thinking will be a little more accepting.

[ironman02]

Solomon,

Letting one season, or even a few seasons, dictate the direction of your program for years to come makes no sense, in my opinion. You said yourself that Jackson will be a title contender in the SEOAL in the future. If you believe that, why would going independent be an option?

Yes, leagues do have some open spots during their league schedule. The SEOAL will be one of them next season as Jackson will have to schedule a non-league opponent in Week 7. It may be easy to find an open spot for a week or two, but imagine having to work that scenario for six or seven weeks. Jackson was almost forced to play a nine game schedule in 2003, but found Patrick Henry at the last minute. PH was the ONLY other team in the state that had an open date for that week. They happened to be a great football team that would win a state title just a few years later, but they had to travel 3 hours to Jackson for a Saturday game.

Jackson definitely plays a difficult schedule this year, especially late in the season. I think they have the potential to have a pretty good year, but there's also the possibility that they will struggle. Even if that happens, it's not time to run away from the SEOAL. Coach Hall, if given time, will bring the Jackson program back to where it wants to be.

[camnott]

2old
So I guess what your saying is that jackson is not doing itself any favor playing a team that they have been winning against as of late, even though there have been some very good games, and that wellston would help its program much more by scheduling a team they could beat every year. Heck as far as I'm concerned jackson can schedule ironton or logan the first game of the season, bring'em on. I'd rather win down the stretch any way. Your thinking doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
It doesn't matter who jackson plays to me I just think that it would be a shame to see the game go by the way side. The bon fire rallies and snake dance down the street and pep rallies in the auditorium that I enjoyed as a kid before the jackson game was a very memorable experience that would be a shame to discard.
By the way wellston will go post season this year and part of the reason will be because of their schedule preparing the team.

[2old]

Ok let me help out as usual. The only benefit to moving the game would be to at least not start every year 0-1. I agree teams progress and I do not believe the results would necessarily be different.

REMEMBER i am firmly on the side that this lunacy has to stop for the benefit of both teams. Wellston would get more points by beating ANYONE and Jackson is ill prepared for battle in the SEOAL. Jackson needs to do something to regain SEOAL stature in the 2000's.
Just have a nice jamboree game for a fund raiser.
CAM,

Of course Jackson is happy with the status quo. Does not take much to understand that. Victory, Computer points, and large gate at home. Plus charging for parking. It is Wellston that is getting killed in the annual game. Loss, no computer points, and far less gate.

[BSBOWEN]

Pictures from the game can be seen at www.bsbowen.com

[Crazy Legs]

Talent and COACHING!!!!! Hit the nail on the head!! If you don't like it you can move to Jackson j/k

[2old]

GAHS,

Pointless. Were you describing your post?


Did you stay for the entire game that year? I know you missed a good beat down at Gallia a few years ago when you left at half time of the Logan. I stayed for the entire beat down.

I can not slow the class down to explain everything to some posters who do not understand scheduling and building a winning program.