The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

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hawkeyepierce
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The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by hawkeyepierce » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:23 pm

I have been mulling this over for the past two seasons. I am now taking the time to put my thoughts to you, my fellow Prepsters.

Disclaimer. I am not opening this up to bash officials. One of my best friend is an official, I am very friendly with most officials, I have worked with them directly for the past six seasons and respect most of them, for I know it is a difficult job. I am simply posing serious questions about the game I love and its affect on its future. And, I am very curious to hear other opinions.

I feel, and I am not alone in this thinking, but the game has become to physical. I am so disappointed to go to the Convo and see two great teams play to a 44-42 score, simply because, defensively they are allow to push, pull, and hold on each other. Because the level of physicality has increased, there is never any consistency in the frequency of what is being call or consistency in the intensity of what is being called. For example, what may be allowable on one end, it is not on the other end, no matter the team. I have seen a game this year, where a total of four fouls were called in the first half, only to see twenty-three fouls called in the second half. Final score, 46-32.

After going back and looking at film, seeing officials that may blow their whistle a half dozen times in the course of a varsity game, only to see another blow his twenty plus times with more than 80% going against one team.

Furthermore, I sometimes question the level of professionalism of officials. I have had a twenty-plus years official come to the table and say; "Relax. It's just high school basketball game." I have another say; "Hopefully it will be an early night." Even if you thought this, wouldn't want to keep it to yourself? There have been officials show up wearing another school colors.

I know that OHSAA and NFHS are desperately seeking officials. There is a shortage, I recognize that, and to lose good officials hurts everyone. However, here are the questions; What, if anything, is the recourse that we get back to calling the game the way it should be, despite overall game length, despite if there is 30 free throws are shot, and how do we weed out the bias ones? Simply, if we do not, in the near future this game is greatly going to change and not for the better.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Ironman92 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:48 pm

I’ve watched more high school level games this year than ever before. I’ve taken in 16 freshman games, 21 JV games and around 35 varsity games. (Yes most of the freshman/JV we’re done by the same crew)

In my opinion this has been the happiest I’ve been with officiating that I can ever remember. I think the tournament refs that I’ve watched (D3 Jackson, D4 Northwest, D2 Southeastern and D2 and D4 at Convo) have been very consistent in what they’ve called/allowed It’s more physical than I prefer but I want consistency more than anything.

The bad stories I’ve heard have been from the SW district. Had a 16-6 D3 team have their entire starting 5 foul out while other team shot 43 free throws to 14 for the team getting ripped off. I’ve also seen video of the star player for said team getting bagged multiple times in same game and no call.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky in what I’ve seen this year but I’ve got to give the officiating pretty high marks this season...and was very impressed with most of the freshman/jv crews.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Raider6309 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:56 pm

During the regular season officiating is different in different areas. The river towns are always bad



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Orange and Brown » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:59 pm

I think folks need to relax a bit. The OHSAA needs more quality officials so instead of complaining. Take the class and find out how hard it is first hand.


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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by HamPorter » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:04 pm

Orange and Brown wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:59 pm
I think folks need to relax a bit. The OHSAA needs more quality officials so instead of complaining. Take the class and find out how hard it is first hand.
Does the class teach you how to be unbiased and not take things personally? Does it teach you how to understand the physics of a deflected ball to not constantly miss which team should get possession?

If not, then we will still have a lot of griping.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Trooper » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:10 pm

This thread won’t last long.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Sid Farkus » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:55 pm

I don’t go to nearly as many games as I used to because I don’t like watching the blood bath that has become high school basketball. Kids do not have a chance to show their skills because it’s become the stronger, more aggressive team wins regardless of who is better. I’d like to see fouls called when there is contact. Boxing out, screens and post play should be the only time there is contact. Any other time should be a foul. There should be no riding the ball handler like we see every play. That’s a foul! The game we have today is not the game I enjoyed watching 20 years ago.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by baseball16 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:58 pm

I will give you my perspective as an official. Some will like and some will not. But hey that's the life of an official, 50% happy about the call while the other 50% is mad. I show up with two guys I have been working together with for over 5 years. I am pretty biased when I say I think we do a pretty darn good job. We travel well over a thousand miles a year. We have hit just about every corner of SE Ohio. I cannot think of a gym that I have not officiated in SE Ohio. I have officiated coaches that were friends of mine as well as schools that I use to teach and coach at and officiated coaches that were pains in the butt and kids that show no respect. However, I have never once thought of "cheating" or being "biased" towards a school. I call them as I see them. Some teams foul a lot and Some teams don't! Some are very aggressive while Some play Zone! Trust me it makes a difference. As for Tournament, I don't think the games I have watched have been too physical. The State wants games to be played without a lot of "Game interuptors" or advantage/disadvantage. I have officiated games where we have called 3-4 fouls in a half and another game where we were shooting bonus after the 1st quarter. I think our District is filled with very good officials and it shows in the tournament. The process of getting tournament games is very competitive and that is how it should be! Getting rid of the "good ol" boys club is key and I truly believe the best should get the best. I have also seen great officials not get tournament games which befuddles me! There is no transparency on how we are picked. I do believe it's getting better but still have guys that probably should not be working top tier games. (JMO) SE Ohio has used over 40% more new officials this year, and I am sure it will continue to improve as the evaluation system has been in place for the past 2 years. I had the honor and privilege to have worked my first ever convo game this year and it was everything I had hoped for. Two teams battling until the end. However, It went way too quickly for me. I was honestly hoping for overtime just so I could have stayed out there longer. LOL
Hopefully, the SEDB continues to use these evaluations and continue to put the best on the best games. Shoot, I would even be open to having some District Final games go unassigned until after the District Semi's and have all board members and evaluators rank the top guys from Sectionals and Semi's and pick them. It would Definitely get some guys attention and make them be on top of all their tournament games. But that is JMO As for Regional and State Games, Don't ask me, I think you just have to "know" the right people and kiss enough Butt to get these games. Plus go to Summer Camps.
Last edited by baseball16 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by mlittle » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:09 pm

Ironman92 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:48 pm
I’ve watched more high school level games this year than ever before. I’ve taken in 16 freshman games, 21 JV games and around 35 varsity games. (Yes most of the freshman/JV we’re done by the same crew)

In my opinion this has been the happiest I’ve been with officiating that I can ever remember. I think the tournament refs that I’ve watched (D3 Jackson, D4 Northwest, D2 Southeastern and D2 and D4 at Convo) have been very consistent in what they’ve called/allowed It’s more physical than I prefer but I want consistency more than anything.

The bad stories I’ve heard have been from the SW district. Had a 16-6 D3 team have their entire starting 5 foul out while other team shot 43 free throws to 14 for the team getting ripped off. I’ve also seen video of the star player for said team getting bagged multiple times in same game and no call.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky in what I’ve seen this year but I’ve got to give the officiating pretty high marks this season...and was very impressed with most of the freshman/jv crews.
The two hands on the ball handler thing has me perplexed. Maybe because my son is a pg but I’ve watched game after game where he (and other guards) try to get past the defender and they literally grab or push them with 2 hands and COMPLETELY stop them in their tracks. I can handle physical but when the defender is impeding the ball handler you have to call it. I’ve actually talked to officials who officiated jv games differently than varsity games. Actually said the varsity players should be able to handle more contact. A foul is a foul at any level.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by mlittle » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:09 pm

Trooper wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:10 pm
This thread won’t last long.
Lol!! Facts



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by hawkeyepierce » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am

Orange and Brown wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:59 pm
I think folks need to relax a bit. The OHSAA needs more quality officials so instead of complaining. Take the class and find out how hard it is first hand.
I did. In 2004, I took the class, became licensed, and realized it wasn’t for me. Two reasons, at the age of 40, my knees were becoming bad and I did nothing more youth basketball and a couple of high school scrimmages and realize I didn’t enjoy it. Therefore, I never renewed.
Trooper wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:10 pm
This thread won’t last long.
Why? We can’t be civil? Recognize a problem and then recommend a solution.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by baseball16 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:47 am

Hawkeye: To answer your question (s). I think the State of officiating is very good in SE Ohio. With the New Tournament Evaluations in place, it has made a difference in my game and How I call it. Sometimes I was in the wrong position and evaluator told me to move to this position. Things I never thought of while I was on the court. Also proper mechanics. It comes back to this with me. If there are 95 Good to Great Officials and 5 Bad officials what do most people talk about? Knowing our Society and how it is today, I'm guessing we talk about the 5 Bad ones. What gets done about it? Well, hopefully, the evaluation system starts getting in place for Reg. Season. I know manpower is hard to do all the games but I believe as an official we should be evaluated 1-2 times a year. JMO. That would allow some good ones to be seen that are not getting tournaments and bad ones to be seen before they get tournaments.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Ironman92 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:14 am

baseball16 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:58 pm
I will give you my perspective as an official. Some will like and some will not. But hey that's the life of an official, 50% happy about the call while the other 50% is mad. I show up with two guys I have been working together with for over 5 years. I am pretty biased when I say I think we do a pretty darn good job. We travel well over a thousand miles a year. We have hit just about every corner of SE Ohio. I cannot think of a gym that I have not officiated in SE Ohio. I have officiated coaches that were friends of mine as well as schools that I use to teach and coach at and officiated coaches that were pains in the butt and kids that show no respect. However, I have never once thought of "cheating" or being "biased" towards a school. I call them as I see them. Some teams foul a lot and Some teams don't! Some are very aggressive while Some play Zone! Trust me it makes a difference. As for Tournament, I don't think the games I have watched have been too physical. The State wants games to be played without a lot of "Game interuptors" or advantage/disadvantage. I have officiated games where we have called 3-4 fouls in a half and another game where we were shooting bonus after the 1st quarter. I think our District is filled with very good officials and it shows in the tournament. The process of getting tournament games is very competitive and that is how it should be! Getting rid of the "good ol" boys club is key and I truly believe the best should get the best. I have also seen great officials not get tournament games which befuddles me! There is no transparency on how we are picked. I do believe it's getting better but still have guys that probably should not be working top tier games. (JMO) SE Ohio has used over 40% more new officials this year, and I am sure it will continue to improve as the evaluation system has been in place for the past 2 years. I had the honor and privilege to have worked my first ever convo game this year and it was everything I had hoped for. Two teams battling until the end. However, It went way too quickly for me. I was honestly hoping for overtime just so I could have stayed out there longer. LOL
Hopefully, the SEDB continues to use these evaluations and continue to put the best on the best games. Shoot, I would even be open to having some District Final games go unassigned until after the District Semi's and have all board members and evaluators rank the top guys from Sectionals and Semi's and pick them. It would Definitely get some guys attention and make them be on top of all their tournament games. But that is JMO As for Regional and State Games, Don't ask me, I think you just have to "know" the right people and kiss enough Butt to get these games. Plus go to Summer Camps.
Pretty surprised you’ve never done a Convo game until this year. That doesn’t seem right.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Older bird » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:05 am

My humble take is that I let them play more under the bucket than probably most. But if ur arm extends it’s a Foul. No question. Out top not real contact allowed unless defense has the position. Also I’ve seen it a hundred times. There might b a push n the back but ball goes out of bounds. The team that might have been fouled will get the ball. Grabbing Of Jersey should always b called. Once this deep n tournament it’s mostly all good teams but during regular season it gets hard to call a game when one or both teams are bad and u just have to try to let game flow as best u can.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by greygoose » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:25 am

Orange and Brown wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:59 pm
I think folks need to relax a bit. The OHSAA needs more quality officials so instead of complaining. Take the class and find out how hard it is first hand.
This is exactly right, I'll yell here and there but I understand these guys will make mistakes. They are not intentially trying to screw over a 16-17 year old kid sometimes it's just where they are and how they see it. OSHAA has the link where anyone can be trained to officiate, I'm sure they'd be glad to get new blood in there with such perspective on the game.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Poo Bear » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:37 am

I’ll defer to Matt Combs on this. I listened to Matt talk after a game vs Washington CH. Apparently it was an extremely rough game. But Coach sounded very frustrated about the physicality of current high school basketball. He mentioned something about resetting fouls after each quarter. If I understood him correctly, of course the refs missed a call at the end that would’ve sent the game to OT. If Coach says it’s too physical then it’s too physical.

The games I’ve seen have been called pretty well, minus one ref who obviously has a distain for a certain school. I would like to see the kids stop showing up the refs . Stop all the open mouths , shoulder shrugging , and talking to the officials



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by formerfcfan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:40 am

As always, the ones in the stands naturally have a better view because of sitting up higher and more focus (eye-sight wise) to the ball with far less obstruction. Far less obstruction, compared, to say, a 5’11 man trying to read through 8-9 players (some taller and bigger than the ref!) who are all packed in pretty tight.

Agreed on summer camps being very good. Denison ran (still runs?) a summer camp with an officiating clinic that was put on for the longest time by Central Ohio legend Wayne Roller (rest his soul). He and his guys always gave great feedback and instruction. There’s always something a ref can improve upon, young and old.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by formerfcfan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:02 am

Poo Bear wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:37 am
I’ll defer to Matt Combs on this. I listened to Matt talk after a game vs Washington CH. Apparently it was an extremely rough game. But Coach sounded very frustrated about the physicality of current high school basketball. He mentioned something about resetting fouls after each quarter. If I understood him correctly, of course the refs missed a call at the end that would’ve sent the game to OT. If Coach says it’s too physical then it’s too physical.

The games I’ve seen have been called pretty well, minus one ref who obviously has a distain for a certain school. I would like to see the kids stop showing up the refs . Stop all the open mouths , shoulder shrugging , and talking to the officials
Your mileage may vary when it comes to the topic of physicality, especially across different parts of the state. Central Ohio the refs generally call it stricter and tighter than the SE, but the East and Northeast parts I’ve understood and seen to be looser and more permissive of contact than what we see in the SE/Convo. Not sure about the western parts.

Re: kids - yeah, I’m not big on kids and how they generally act regarding calls, fouls and officiating in general. If I were the head coach of my team, I’d make it a point to my players that they are to stay way the heck away from the refs on a foul call - don’t look at them, don’t raise open palms, don’t question them... no reaction. I know that’s really tough, and it’s especially tough when the coach will have his reactions, but - respect for officiating aside - absolutely NOTHING good comes out of acting like a twerp in response to an official. I will say that if the ref talks to the kid first / if the two are talking about instructions/corrections/“what NOT to do” like when FT’s are being shot, that’s kosher.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by trojandave » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:10 pm

Sometimes the skill levels of the players involved has some influence on how a game is officiated. Poor skill level on both offense and defense may result in more calls being made. Also officials from other districts may tend to officiate a game with a different perspective. We in the SE district have all seen officials from other parts of the state come to the Convo and officiate the game in a different way. That doesn't make their way wrong, it's just they may have an officiating style that is different than SE officials that we see on a regular basis.

It seems over the 47 years I have watched HS basketball, the faster paced games were the ones that had the fewest calls. The slower half court games were the tougher ones to officiate because they tended to be more physical.....more hand grabbing and pushing/shoving on rebounds. How much of those things does an official allow? There's a difficult balance that an official faces because no one wants to see a parade to the FT line.

The officiating in the SE district has been good as far as I'm concerned......with one exception.......travelling doesn't seem to be called as much as it used to be.......and I don't think it helps the players to get away with it.

I've done some officiating myself........Bannon Park Classic in Portsmouth........officiating regular HS games is a picnic compared to the BPC......super intensity by the players, coaches, and spectators alike.....not unusual for tempers to flare. I wasn't getting paid, nor was their police presence most of the time.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by hawkeyepierce » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 pm

Thanks baseball16 for your analysis. I guess my point was, and I have a thousand examples of game past, that I can't directly point to either inconsistency, bias, and/or crappy performance. Maybe when I have more time, I can list a few. But, it remains, how do we get that "5%" as you said, on the same page with the other "95%?"



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by baseball16 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:32 am

hawkeyepierce wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 pm
Thanks baseball16 for your analysis. I guess my point was, and I have a thousand examples of game past, that I can't directly point to either inconsistency, bias, and/or crappy performance. Maybe when I have more time, I can list a few. But, it remains, how do we get that "5%" as you said, on the same page with the other "95%?"
The only way is to not hire them. But that is an AD, Assignor, and Coach Job. Start weeding those guys out. Only good thing about it is I have seen some very good officials that will be moving up to Class 1 this coming season. So this will help and also add to the Competition when it comes to getting games. The State of Officiating is Fine in my opinion. It will always have its bumps but this past couple of years is as strong (depth) wise that I have seen in a very long time. You can bet on one thing, My crew will show up, work very hard during the game, miss some calls along the way, and move on to the next gym caring less about who wins or loses! Can't wait for Nov. 2019 to get started again.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by hawkeyepierce » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:44 am

Here is an example of the kind of thing I am talking about...

https://daytonsportshuddle.com/2019/03/ ... planation/



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Ironman92 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:20 am

That’s an extreme case and should never ever happen. Should’ve been looked at and changed.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by Philos_Finest » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:44 am

There is one good crew and about 2 decent crews left around the East District.



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Re: The State of Officiating... serious questions. Discuss.

Post by HamPorter » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:20 am

hawkeyepierce wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:44 am
Here is an example of the kind of thing I am talking about...

https://daytonsportshuddle.com/2019/03/ ... planation/
Wanna guess if that video is ever public? Probably won’t be.



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