Conflict of Interest Questions

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Phoenix31
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Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:22 pm

I want your opinion on 3 similar questions pertaining to possible conflict of interest by a current head coach of a high school baseball team.

Is it a conflict of interest for a current head coach of a high school baseball team to:

1.) have his current high school players pay for hitting and/or pitching instruction during the season at his baseball business?

2.) have his current high school players pay for hitting and/or pitching instruction during the season and off-season at his baseball business?

3.) have his current high school players pay for hitting and/or pitching instruction during the off-season at his baseball business?



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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Chieftain2009 » Sun May 21, 2017 12:57 am

I wouldn't say any of those would be a conflict of interest, but I would say that those would go against helping out your baseball team.
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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 5:22 am

Chieftain2009 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:57 am
I wouldn't say any of those would be a conflict of interest, but I would say that those would go against helping out your baseball team.
Thanks for your response.

Maybe, I should explain in more detail my definition of conflict of interest.

The possible conflict of interest arises between those players who pay for lessons and those players who do not. The possible conflict of interest on the coach's part pertains to his decision to play the players who pay for his lessons versus those who get fewer days of instruction in regular practice from the coach or one of his assistants.

Paid instruction during the season occurs on days where no games and practices are scheduled. For instance, a coach will never have a game or practice on a Wednesday because this is when he gives his paid instruction to his high school players.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 12:02 pm

163 views and only 1 response?

Does this happen in a lot of schools nowadays and everybody wants to stay quiet on the issue?

Wow!

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Orange and Brown » Sun May 21, 2017 12:39 pm

It's not something I would allow to happen if I were an AD.
If you want the kids to hit and get better, why charge them?
If you own a business you want to make money, I get that. If charging the kids to show up and hit year round and then not playing the kids that don't or can't pay, then you are not much of a coach at all in my opinion.
If I were a coach that owned batting cages and charged people to use them, I'd let my kids use them for free during the season and offer a discount for the off-season but I wouldn't hold it against a kid who didn't use them in the off-season. Lots of kids play multiple sports so they may not have the time to use them.
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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Raider6309 » Sun May 21, 2017 1:29 pm

I'm guessing this dude won't be a coach for long :lol:

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Watson40 » Sun May 21, 2017 3:29 pm

I would say shame on any coach that would make a current player pay for this instruction at any time through the year. But in truth for it to be unethical questions have to be answered. Is he providing sufficient training opportunities with the scope of his job, free of charge, during the training seasons? If he shows little interest in fulfilling his contractual obligations and makes it up with money going in his pocket then that would be obvious.

Baseball is down right now. I have heard many say it is a dying sport. So any coach that can not give 100% to his players and community should really step aside and let someone take the reigns that will. I have nothing against people making money but now you cross over to questioned favoritism and obligation for those who spend more money in this coaches facility.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by noreply66 » Sun May 21, 2017 4:17 pm

Sounds like money before the kids to me. Money in the bank is more important to some people than the youth of this country.
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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by enigmaax » Sun May 21, 2017 4:59 pm

Phoenix31 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:22 am
Chieftain2009 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:57 am
I wouldn't say any of those would be a conflict of interest, but I would say that those would go against helping out your baseball team.
Thanks for your response.

Maybe, I should explain in more detail my definition of conflict of interest.

The possible conflict of interest arises between those players who pay for lessons and those players who do not. The possible conflict of interest on the coach's part pertains to his decision to play the players who pay for his lessons versus those who get fewer days of instruction in regular practice from the coach or one of his assistants.

Paid instruction during the season occurs on days where no games and practices are scheduled. For instance, a coach will never have a game or practice on a Wednesday because this is when he gives his paid instruction to his high school players.
Could it be that the players who pay for instruction actually develop better skills from putting in more time than kids who don't? And THAT is why those kids may get to play more?

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by hilljack » Sun May 21, 2017 5:34 pm

Sounds like a big conflict to me, especially if its during the season. Getting paid for extra time with your own players? What about the players who can't afford that extra time?

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Abe Froman » Sun May 21, 2017 8:35 pm

I know of 5-7 coaches just in a couple counties that do this for not only their players but other area players in all grades. In basketball, football, baseball and track.

You seriously going to tell someone that can't make a second income teaching something? Seriously.

Quit whining.

When varsity season hits it is about winning and fielding the best players no matter the sport. If you think otherwise then you have never been interviewed by an AD and Superintendent after a losing season.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:08 pm

Orange and Brown wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:39 pm
It's not something I would allow to happen if I were an AD.
If you want the kids to hit and get better, why charge them?
If you own a business you want to make money, I get that. If charging the kids to show up and hit year round and then not playing the kids that don't or can't pay, then you are not much of a coach at all in my opinion.
If I were a coach that owned batting cages and charged people to use them, I'd let my kids use them for free during the season and offer a discount for the off-season but I wouldn't hold it against a kid who didn't use them in the off-season. Lots of kids play multiple sports so they may not have the time to use them.
Thanks for your response, O&B.

I especially agree with the highlighted sentence.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:10 pm

Raider6309 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 1:29 pm
I'm guessing this dude won't be a coach for long :lol:
Thanks for your response, Raider.

He has been a head coach in high school baseball between 5-10 years.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:11 pm

Watson40 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:29 pm
I would say shame on any coach that would make a current player pay for this instruction at any time through the year. But in truth for it to be unethical questions have to be answered. Is he providing sufficient training opportunities with the scope of his job, free of charge, during the training seasons? If he shows little interest in fulfilling his contractual obligations and makes it up with money going in his pocket then that would be obvious.

Baseball is down right now. I have heard many say it is a dying sport. So any coach that can not give 100% to his players and community should really step aside and let someone take the reigns that will. I have nothing against people making money but now you cross over to questioned favoritism and obligation for those who spend more money in this coaches facility.
Thanks for your response, Watson.

I agree with the highlighted sentence.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:14 pm

noreply66 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 4:17 pm
Sounds like money before the kids to me. Money in the bank is more important to some people than the youth of this country.
Thanks for your response, noreply.

Do you believe that he should be allowed to provide paid services to his players at least in the off-season?

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:25 pm

enigmaax wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 4:59 pm
Could it be that the players who pay for instruction actually develop better skills from putting in more time than kids who don't? And THAT is why those kids may get to play more?
Thanks for your response, enigmaax.

I agree with you that players who pay for instruction put in a lot more time, on average, than players who do not.

In your opinion, should the players be allowed to receive paid individual instruction from their head coach during the season?

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:27 pm

hilljack wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:34 pm
Sounds like a big conflict to me, especially if its during the season. Getting paid for extra time with your own players? What about the players who can't afford that extra time?
Thanks for your response, hilljack.

I agree with your statement.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:38 pm

Abe Froman wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:35 pm
I know of 5-7 coaches just in a couple counties that do this for not only their players but other area players in all grades. In basketball, football, baseball and track.

You seriously going to tell someone that can't make a second income teaching something? Seriously.

Quit whining.

When varsity season hits it is about winning and fielding the best players no matter the sport. If you think otherwise then you have never been interviewed by an AD and Superintendent after a losing season.
Thanks for your response, Abe Froman - sausage king of Chicago!

:mrgreen:

Do you believe that these coaches who provide paid individual instruction during the season to players would rather play them instead of playing somebody who hasn't paid for instruction? What would that do to the coach's business if an individual paid for instruction and didn't get substantial playing time? In addition, invariably there exists the propensity for the coach to slack off on professionally preparing the non-paying athletes during hitting instruction. Comparing stats to determine playing time is more easily accomplished if the paying athlete is hitting better than the non-paying athlete.

Hence, the possible conflict of interest exists.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Abe Froman » Sun May 21, 2017 9:44 pm

Phoenix31 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:38 pm
Abe Froman wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:35 pm
I know of 5-7 coaches just in a couple counties that do this for not only their players but other area players in all grades. In basketball, football, baseball and track.

You seriously going to tell someone that can't make a second income teaching something? Seriously.

Quit whining.

When varsity season hits it is about winning and fielding the best players no matter the sport. If you think otherwise then you have never been interviewed by an AD and Superintendent after a losing season.
Thanks for your response, Abe Froman - sausage king of Chicago!

:mrgreen:

Do you believe that these coaches who provide paid individual instruction during the season to players would rather play them instead of playing somebody who hasn't paid for instruction? What would that do to the coach's business if an individual paid for instruction and didn't get substantial playing time? In addition, invariably there exists the propensity for the coach to slack off on professionally preparing the non-paying athletes during hitting instruction. Comparing stats to determine playing time is more easily accomplished if the paying athlete is hitting better than the non-paying athlete.

Hence, the possible conflict of interest exists.
Shouldn't be done during the season.

I was referring to off season instructions and it always involves players other than just who is being coached from around the area. Very often players who are under his tutelage are not charged.

But I see no reason to limit it from happening, unless it is during the season. That should not occur.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:52 pm

Abe Froman wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:44 pm
Shouldn't be done during the season.

I was referring to off season instructions and it always involves players other than just who is being coached from around the area. Very often players who are under his tutelage are not charged.

But I see no reason to limit it from happening, unless it is during the season. That should not occur.
Thanks for the clarification.

:mrgreen:

We do agree on this situation.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Watson40 » Sun May 21, 2017 10:40 pm

enigmaax wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 4:59 pm
Phoenix31 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:22 am
Chieftain2009 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:57 am
I wouldn't say any of those would be a conflict of interest, but I would say that those would go against helping out your baseball team.
Thanks for your response.

Maybe, I should explain in more detail my definition of conflict of interest.

The possible conflict of interest arises between those players who pay for lessons and those players who do not. The possible conflict of interest on the coach's part pertains to his decision to play the players who pay for his lessons versus those who get fewer days of instruction in regular practice from the coach or one of his assistants.

Paid instruction during the season occurs on days where no games and practices are scheduled. For instance, a coach will never have a game or practice on a Wednesday because this is when he gives his paid instruction to his high school players.
Could it be that the players who pay for instruction actually develop better skills from putting in more time than kids who don't? And THAT is why those kids may get to play more?
Sure. That could absolutely be the case. In most cases this is probably accurate. But we are mostly in southern ohio. Or at least rural type areas. I have no doubt some kids just could not afford additional time and really shouldn't have to pay for it with their own coach. Just my opinion. But I happen to know how easy it is to do some fundraising and find a spot to hang a net/ cage that would benefit the entire team. I just can't seem to wrap my head around any theory that would make this acceptable. Maybe he could run his business and charge everyone with exception of his current players. As long as you don't instruct them in the OHSAA banned months, there should be no issue with that. Once again if that costs money out of pocket, I am very sure you could fundraise to cover the cost.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Sun May 21, 2017 11:20 pm

Watson40 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 10:40 pm
Sure. That could absolutely be the case. In most cases this is probably accurate. But we are mostly in southern ohio. Or at least rural type areas. I have no doubt some kids just could not afford additional time and really shouldn't have to pay for it with their own coach. Just my opinion. But I happen to know how easy it is to do some fundraising and find a spot to hang a net/ cage that would benefit the entire team. I just can't seem to wrap my head around any theory that would make this acceptable. Maybe he could run his business and charge everyone with exception of his current players. As long as you don't instruct them in the OHSAA banned months, there should be no issue with that. Once again if that costs money out of pocket, I am very sure you could fundraise to cover the cost.
Boosters could not raise money to cover the costs for a head coach to instruct players at his place of business.

Boosters could raise money to cover the costs with somebody who is not on the coaching staff. However, the boosters cannot cover the costs for the head coach at his place of business.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Watson40 » Mon May 22, 2017 12:13 am

Phoenix31 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 11:20 pm
Watson40 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 10:40 pm
Sure. That could absolutely be the case. In most cases this is probably accurate. But we are mostly in southern ohio. Or at least rural type areas. I have no doubt some kids just could not afford additional time and really shouldn't have to pay for it with their own coach. Just my opinion. But I happen to know how easy it is to do some fundraising and find a spot to hang a net/ cage that would benefit the entire team. I just can't seem to wrap my head around any theory that would make this acceptable. Maybe he could run his business and charge everyone with exception of his current players. As long as you don't instruct them in the OHSAA banned months, there should be no issue with that. Once again if that costs money out of pocket, I am very sure you could fundraise to cover the cost.
Boosters could not raise money to cover the costs for a head coach to instruct players at his place of business.

Boosters could raise money to cover the costs with somebody who is not on the coaching staff. However, the boosters cannot cover the costs for the head coach at his place of business.
Sorry I was vague. I am not even referring to boosters. Coach could do this on his own with a few calls to local business that sponsor school sports. Have a fund raiser. None of that really matters however. I was simply trying to say that instead of charging kids, he could come up with an alternative so kids aren't left out. If a kid is good enough to roster then he should be good enough to train along with all others. During my coaching years I knew what boosters provided and then went on my own when we needed additional equipment or material.

But I really think the issue could be avoided if he just allowed current rostered players, from freshman to senior, to train at his facility free of charge. Actually I don't understand why he would not? If you have kids that would come in all year for reps why wouldnt you want that to happen? If he has a steady flow of little league and middle school, as well as kids that are from neighboring areas, how much is he really losing to allow them to hit through the winter? You could even make the argument for sacrifice for job security. It could only make these kids better. All programs with a record of success also have a coach that goes above and beyond. Great programs aren't built in 3 months of a baseball season.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by fbnut » Mon May 22, 2017 7:16 am

I don't think it's appropriate during season. Off-season though I don't see how it's any different than a teacher charging a fee to Tudor a kid in math after school

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by enigmaax » Mon May 22, 2017 9:05 am

Phoenix/Watson - I think that some of what you both are saying are exactly why it is being handled the correct way (based on the limited information provided here - I have no idea who this is about). The business and the head coaching job are separate entities. If kids from his own school want to use the service, they need to pay for it just like anyone else; otherwise, it'd essentially be offering freebies on account of athletics...violation of rules. Because of that, no, he shouldn't cut anyone a deal or find a way to pay for his own kids regardless of financial situations.

Now, I do see how that can be separated from "conflict of interest." Still, is the solution that he not accept business from his own kids at all? That doesn't make much sense. Is the solution that he should not be able to coach varsity baseball (anywhere)? That also seems like a poor solution - if a person is respected enough that people are willing to pay for his services, it seems like he would likely be a good hand to have leading a program. And if he is really that good of a coach and really driven to help people improve (as evidenced by running a business where the results will determine whether people continue to pay for your service), I wouldn't automatically assume that favoritism would be an issue. I would hope that he can really evaluate talent and play is based on that evaluation.

Having said all that, I've seen a very negative situation with a local baseball business that got involved in youth sports. It was not quite the same and has nothing to do with playing time for individuals, but it was a horrible organization for an entire youth league. In your case, I'm just curious as to the whole story - since you posted it, is it a widely held perception that the guy only coaches to feed his business? Is he a successful head coach?

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Watson40 » Mon May 22, 2017 3:26 pm

Enigmaax I catch what you are saying. What I was suggesting is maybe setting a training area that could be used by his players. All players. Instead of charging like they would do at the batters box or an indoor facility. To my understanding there are only a few months when a coach can not coach his players. And then it falls under the scrutiny of giving all the same opportunity. For instance if a coach instructs through a separate season it has to be available to the entire team and not just a select few. I have been confused about these rules for quite a while so please correct me if I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time haha.

It is a catch 22. The coach should be able to run business. But we have hit this era where the option for a kid is to quit when they perceive things are unfair. We used to push for kids to ride out rough times to show them what hard work can do in their life. But now parents and kids are quick to just quit and teach the world a lesson. This is a discussion for another thread. But my point I was trying to make is that in a world of people hunting for any reason to cry inequality, this could get sticky. Especially in the smaller communities where they have to basically beg kids to play. So rhe correct answer would be be, "who cares and let them cry". But the horrible truth is that something like this could hurt a program in a small community like new Boston (didn't have enough to play this year).

Either way this is a good topic. I know coach Schuler gave instruction in the off season. Wonder if he came across issues like this. Would like to hear from him.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Tartanblue » Tue May 23, 2017 11:12 am

Is this coach also willing to give lessons to athletes from other schools and charge them the same amount? Has this coach showed anything that makes people believe he is favoring players who paid for lessons? Is it a conflict of interest if this coach does work with other athletes from other schools in his division or conference, especially if some of these players transfer to his school because he can get a player an opportunity to move to the next level?

There are a ton of questions on whether something is a conflict of interest. If the coach is running a business where the PARENTS of players want to pay for their child to get extra lessons and it is also open to players from other schools to get lessons as well, as well as the coach not showing favoritism to players over those who may not be able to pay for lessons but are exceptional athletes, then no there is no conflict of interest. You can not hold it against a coach if they are capable of helping kids get better by charging to keep his business in operation especially if this is his main way of living. The conflict of interest in this is if he was charging athletes from other schools and not athletes from his for private lessons through his business.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Phoenix31 » Wed May 24, 2017 10:07 pm

Tartanblue wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 11:12 am
Is this coach also willing to give lessons to athletes from other schools and charge them the same amount? Yes

Has this coach showed anything that makes people believe he is favoring players who paid for lessons? Yes

Is it a conflict of interest if this coach does work with other athletes from other schools in his division or conference, especially if some of these players transfer to his school because he can get a player an opportunity to move to the next level? No

.....

The conflict of interest in this is if he was charging athletes from other schools and not athletes from his for private lessons through his business.

This is incorrect in this situation.

The conflict of interest in this situation arises within his own school system by showing favoritism to these players over those who do not pay for his instruction during the season. In addition, administration at this school has indicated that no conflict of interest exists - under current school regulations - in having current players pay for instruction during the season.
My answers and comments are in red.

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Re: Conflict of Interest Questions

Post by Tartanblue » Thu May 25, 2017 12:47 pm

Phoenix31 wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 10:07 pm
Tartanblue wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 11:12 am
Is this coach also willing to give lessons to athletes from other schools and charge them the same amount? Yes

Has this coach showed anything that makes people believe he is favoring players who paid for lessons? Yes

Is it a conflict of interest if this coach does work with other athletes from other schools in his division or conference, especially if some of these players transfer to his school because he can get a player an opportunity to move to the next level? No

.....

The conflict of interest in this is if he was charging athletes from other schools and not athletes from his for private lessons through his business.

This is incorrect in this situation.

The conflict of interest in this situation arises within his own school system by showing favoritism to these players over those who do not pay for his instruction during the season. In addition, administration at this school has indicated that no conflict of interest exists - under current school regulations - in having current players pay for instruction during the season.
My answers and comments are in red.
If he's showing distinct favoritism to players who are paying for lessons over kids who are not, then there is a problem with this situation. Along with the administration if they see no problem with showing favoritism for those players; however, if he is giving lessons and they are going to his business of work other than his coaching as long as he is not showing favoritism i see no problem as long as he is able to seperate the two.

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