Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

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Hoop Wizard
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Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Hoop Wizard » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:37 am

Attending sectional and district games over the last week and a half as well as most of my life I have one question. Why is the officiating different at tourney time? It's crazy how different it is! Why is something that is a foul in regular season not a foul at tourney time. This thread is not to whine about "my team" losing, I had no team left nor was I at games to support any team, just a basketball fan and long time Coach that gets to as many games as I can because I love the sport. We've all heard " well, that's tournament ball" and " the officials don't want to decide the game" but then what is regular season for? I realize basketball "is" definitely a contact sport- but it is crazy how officials swallow the whistle at tourney time!



smurray
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by smurray » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:15 am

I agree, and same question can be asked about late in a game. A foul that is called throughout the game is for some reason not called in the final seconds. Call it the same all the time!

ArmChairQB
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by ArmChairQB » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:18 am

It's the same at all levels of basketball!

reds4life
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by reds4life » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:49 am

I think this is true. I also think it's worse in girls basketball. Way too much reaching, grabbing, pushing, holding,etc. A boys game is so much cleaner with less fouls being called. I think it starts at the lower levels where apparently refs don't think girls are talented enough to play by the actual rules and thus the game gets called differently. Then, the girls get by with it and then it progresses from there.

baseball16
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by baseball16 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:03 pm

Question:

Do you want to see a game with 40-50 fouls called or a game with 10-20 fouls called and Flow of the game is a lot better??

See, Fans want this: If it's too rough they want every ticky tack call to be called. However, Refs call it this way, then they start yelling to let them play. Happens every time. Hard to have it both ways.

Reffing is fun and enjoyable for many of us. It allows us to stay in the game and be a part of it. I highly encourage anyone to take the class and begin reffing. (Demand continues to be high) You will open your eyes to more of the game and flow of the game.

Hoop Wizard
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Hoop Wizard » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:01 pm

MY point was not whether or not 40-50 fouls called or 10-20 fouls called- My point is games are called different in the tournaments. I know refs are assigned come districts but I've seen the same refs throughout the year working with their crews. Again- not complaining it costs anyone a game as I'm never one to blame officiating and I've coached for close to 40 years. You learn to Coach a tightly called game or a loosely called game. Players and Coaches have to adjust and coach what's in front of them. Games get way more physical in the post season- called more like a college game. I'm OK with that. Saturday I saw numerous times 2 hands put on the offensive player that was an automatic during the season- not called during post season. I guess as a Coach getting consistency during a game you can live with as long as it is consistent. The problem is there is no consistency from game to game. And you have to admit post season is different. If your argument is "let the players decide the game" and not the officials- I don't buy it. If I'm not as good as another player but am allowed to "get physical" with them- is this not helping decide the game. This is all for conversation. Saw a girl Saturday get hammered and taken out with a cut that probably needed stitches and there was no call- I guess from an officials stand point she didn't take the ball up strong enough- she missed a good 6 minutes of action being tended to. Be sure I'm not blaming the officials- The game was decided on the floor by the players and coaches and in no way did this cost that team the game. But- what defines a regular season foul to a tournament game foul?

baseball16
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by baseball16 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:31 pm

Also, you might see inconsistency from refs in post season because they work with 2 completely different partners. I know in the 4 games I Reffed there was only 1 guy I reffed with more than 1 game. So it is getting to know your partners and how they like to call things. Some guys are tight, others tell you to let them play. It's about figuring the games out on the fly and doing the best you can. Not making excuses, but who your partners are goes a long ways in how that game will be called in tournament. My crew in regular season pretty much knows each others tendencies and how we call a game.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by smurray » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:54 pm

baseball16 wrote:Question:

Do you want to see a game with 40-50 fouls called or a game with 10-20 fouls called and Flow of the game is a lot better??

See, Fans want this: If it's too rough they want every ticky tack call to be called. However, Refs call it this way, then they start yelling to let them play. Happens every time. Hard to have it both ways.

Reffing is fun and enjoyable for many of us. It allows us to stay in the game and be a part of it. I highly encourage anyone to take the class and begin reffing. (Demand continues to be high) You will open your eyes to more of the game and flow of the game.
I think you missed the point. The point is there is a difference between the way the game is called during the regular season and the way it is called during the tournament. Why the change? Call it the same way for both. The regular season is to prepare them for the tournament.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ironman92 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:14 pm

baseball16 wrote:Also, you might see inconsistency from refs in post season because they work with 2 completely different partners. I know in the 4 games I Reffed there was only 1 guy I reffed with more than 1 game. So it is getting to know your partners and how they like to call things. Some guys are tight, others tell you to let them play. It's about figuring the games out on the fly and doing the best you can. Not making excuses, but who your partners are goes a long ways in how that game will be called in tournament. My crew in regular season pretty much knows each others tendencies and how we call a game.
Years back I was watching a district final boys game where there were IMO 2 of the best refs around and then another guy I hadn't seen before. The unknown to me guy was brutal against one team calling 8 of 10 fouls on the top 2 players of one team. I got on here and ranted a bit as this was the most blatant things I had witnessed on the court.....one of the refs (who I did not know personally but just by name as announced) messaged me on here and apologized on behalf of that particular ref and had no idea why he called many of those calls. He said he was embarrassed to be a part of it. I had it saved in my messages until this site crashed or whatever last year.

As for you baseball16...I enjoy seeing your crew and can only think of one time you guys seemed to have some trouble with the flow of the game and keeping it really controlled...and that particular game one of you were missing from the trio. I prefer refs who understand sports and your crew is high up that list...seems like some refs don't at all.

Ballboy09
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ballboy09 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:36 am

I question why it is apparent that officials change the flow of the game when said game becomes lopsided in score? I've seen this numerous times over the course of the year, in both boys and girls. It almost seems that they fall prey to the, poor team A, they are not capable of maintaining any continuity, let's change it. Saw it happen last night. Scoreboard should not be a factor in calling the game. Missed turnovers that made both sides grimace and moan, fouls to put losing team at the line in the 3rd quarter. Both teams playing a zone???

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by ArmChairQB » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Ballboy09 wrote:I question why it is apparent that officials change the flow of the game when said game becomes lopsided in score? I've seen this numerous times over the course of the year, in both boys and girls. It almost seems that they fall prey to the, poor team A, they are not capable of maintaining any continuity, let's change it. Saw it happen last night. Scoreboard should not be a factor in calling the game. Missed turnovers that made both sides grimace and moan, fouls to put losing team at the line in the 3rd quarter. Both teams playing a zone???
What i want to see happen is if the game is a blowout- say 20+ points , the refs should swallow their whistles . Get Thale game over as quickly as possible.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ballboy09 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:41 pm

ArmChairQB wrote:
Ballboy09 wrote:I question why it is apparent that officials change the flow of the game when said game becomes lopsided in score? I've seen this numerous times over the course of the year, in both boys and girls. It almost seems that they fall prey to the, poor team A, they are not capable of maintaining any continuity, let's change it. Saw it happen last night. Scoreboard should not be a factor in calling the game. Missed turnovers that made both sides grimace and moan, fouls to put losing team at the line in the 3rd quarter. Both teams playing a zone???
What i want to see happen is if the game is a blowout- say 20+ points , the refs should swallow their whistles . Get Thale game over as quickly as possible.
I see this both ways, but for the sake of the game and competition, it should play out the same. Whether five or twenty five, don't make a comedy out of the game itself. The teams can sort that out themselves. Nothing more frustrating to me than watching the refs predict the outcome.

screamineagle
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by screamineagle » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:22 am

THEY ALL SUCK

clevelandbrowns#1
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by clevelandbrowns#1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:58 am

Screamineagle, you know what sucks is how many of you that get on here and bad mouth all the officials. These old/young, men/women who work full time jobs during the day and then leave there houses at 4:30-5:00, 4-5 times a week to go call basketball games. They make $60-70 per game, get home between 10-11 if lucky. Listen to many of you call us, cheaters, son of a -----, horrible, etc... How about all of you that think you can do better go volunteer to do a biddy ball game and let us know how you did?? Most who are screaming at all of us during a game have no idea about the rules, managing a game or could even run up and down the court for 4 quarters. Go watch the game, boo us if you want but keep your pathetic comments to yourselves!!

Ballboy09
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ballboy09 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:42 am

clevelandbrowns#1 wrote:Screamineagle, you know what sucks is how many of you that get on here and bad mouth all the officials. These old/young, men/women who work full time jobs during the day and then leave there houses at 4:30-5:00, 4-5 times a week to go call basketball games. They make $60-70 per game, get home between 10-11 if lucky. Listen to many of you call us, cheaters, son of a -----, horrible, etc... How about all of you that think you can do better go volunteer to do a biddy ball game and let us know how you did?? Most who are screaming at all of us during a game have no idea about the rules, managing a game or could even run up and down the court for 4 quarters. Go watch the game, boo us if you want but keep your pathetic comments to yourselves!!
Cleveland....sorry to offend. The "managing" the game comment is what gets me. There is no management, you just call the action as it happens. This is what the problem is.

clevelandbrowns#1
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by clevelandbrowns#1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:53 am

Ball boy, managing the game is a trait that officials wish to gain. Being able to have a game have so flow to it is managing. Basketball is a contact sport, always has been and always will be. Managing how much contact is the key. Did the defensive or offensive player gain an advantage by using contact? Then a foul must be called. An example would be the ball that is shot comes off the rim where the defensive team gains the rebound where there is contact by the offensive team but doesn't knock the defensive player off his spot. Don't call that a foul but try to get a flow in the game. Managing is gained through years of experience!!

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ballboy09 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:00 pm

I guess I am old school still. If a foul occurs, call it, whether advantage or not. If you shoot 50 FT's, you shoot 50 FT's. They too are a part of the game. Kind of like taking the kickoff and extra points away from football. Coaches and fans will gripe, but they will have to make adjustments. I think all of the contact that has spilled down from the NBA/WWE is killing the game.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by baseball16 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:49 pm

Ballboy09 wrote:I guess I am old school still. If a foul occurs, call it, whether advantage or not. If you shoot 50 FT's, you shoot 50 FT's. They too are a part of the game. Kind of like taking the kickoff and extra points away from football. Coaches and fans will gripe, but they will have to make adjustments. I think all of the contact that has spilled down from the NBA/WWE is killing the game.
'

Old School? Shoot, Old School you could clobber someone without it being a foul. LOL

Shooting 50 FT's a game will make games last until 10 oclock. No thanks.
Advantage /Disadvantage is huge.

Baseball is the same way, I would rather an umpire have a big strike zone compared to a tissue box. Open it up, allow the game to be played in a timely manner.
Even though basketball is at a higher pace, slowing it down can make it a yawner as well.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ballboy09 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:06 pm

baseball16 wrote:
Ballboy09 wrote:I guess I am old school still. If a foul occurs, call it, whether advantage or not. If you shoot 50 FT's, you shoot 50 FT's. They too are a part of the game. Kind of like taking the kickoff and extra points away from football. Coaches and fans will gripe, but they will have to make adjustments. I think all of the contact that has spilled down from the NBA/WWE is killing the game.
'

Old School? Shoot, Old School you could clobber someone without it being a foul. LOL

Shooting 50 FT's a game will make games last until 10 oclock. No thanks.
Advantage /Disadvantage is huge.

Baseball is the same way, I would rather an umpire have a big strike zone compared to a tissue box. Open it up, allow the game to be played in a timely manner.
Even though basketball is at a higher pace, slowing it down can make it a yawner as well.
Fortunately, basketball has it's own clock within the game. Don't have to worry about 12 innings, darkness or rain. 32 minutes is all you have to worry about. If that becomes too long, maybe find something not as time consuming. Once again, not about the refs. They are there as a judge because pickup rules would not work. I guess we could just check it up out top and eliminate the time costly parts of the game?

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by formerfcfan » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:08 pm

reds4life wrote:I think this is true. I also think it's worse in girls basketball. Way too much reaching, grabbing, pushing, holding,etc. A boys game is so much cleaner with less fouls being called. I think it starts at the lower levels where apparently refs don't think girls are talented enough to play by the actual rules and thus the game gets called differently. Then, the girls get by with it and then it progresses from there.

In my experience, girls basketball at the sub-varsity level (JV; Jr High and middle school) is generally the hardest to ref. There is a lot of sloppy play, such as turnovers; double dribbles; bad defense; hacking etc. Anything 7th grade and up, it's imperative to call like you would a regular game... even if it means the game moves so as molasses.

But, for biddy level it is different. Yes, you should call biddy games like you would a regular game. Should being that since the league promises to coaches they use OHSAA certified refs, they are going to have competent reffing that enforces and calls the travels and grabbing and what not. Does expectation always meet reality? No; especially not when biddy league directors prioritize a game finishing in its 50 minute time slot over a game that is called completely (or near completely) correct that goes over 10-15 minutes. If a ref in biddy league were to call every single grab, push, hold that happens in biddy league (yes, those can happen frequently in biddy), then you would have little kids shooting 1-and-1's and in the double bonus with several minutes left in each half. For a biddy league director, that can be disastrous from a time management perspective if a game has a bunch of trips to the free throw line when it comes to little kids. They move slow, they often don't have the "where do we need to be lined up for FT's" quite down yet, you have coaches taking their time making substitutions etc. Since most biddy leagues run schedules where there are five-to-seven games in a gym on a certain day (Saturday or Sunday), it only takes one game that is backed up due to stoppages on the clock (e.g. FT's) to have a domino effect on the rest of the day.

In biddy, unless the game is tight and there is still 'something to play for' from a win/loss perspective (e.g. if it's a four point game with a few minutes left) then the only thing that calling non-detrimental fouls does is it invites drama and angry parents in a situation that can frankly go without it. Sure, the same can be said for JR high, JV and maybe varsity; but since a lot of biddy leagues use the same couple refs calling games for the same handful of teams over a 5-6 week period, as a ref (whether you want to engage in it or not) you can end up on the receiving end of some seriously ugly feuding and nastiness that will just come back the next week and the week after all because you called a certain kid for a shove.
Glory, glory to the Irish.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ed Ott » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:00 pm

formerfcfan wrote:
reds4life wrote:I think this is true. I also think it's worse in girls basketball. Way too much reaching, grabbing, pushing, holding,etc. A boys game is so much cleaner with less fouls being called. I think it starts at the lower levels where apparently refs don't think girls are talented enough to play by the actual rules and thus the game gets called differently. Then, the girls get by with it and then it progresses from there.

In my experience, girls basketball at the sub-varsity level (JV; Jr High and middle school) is generally the hardest to ref. There is a lot of sloppy play, such as turnovers; double dribbles; bad defense; hacking etc. Anything 7th grade and up, it's imperative to call like you would a regular game... even if it means the game moves so as molasses.

But, for biddy level it is different. Yes, you should call biddy games like you would a regular game. Should being that since the league promises to coaches they use OHSAA certified refs, they are going to have competent reffing that enforces and calls the travels and grabbing and what not. Does expectation always meet reality? No; especially not when biddy league directors prioritize a game finishing in its 50 minute time slot over a game that is called completely (or near completely) correct that goes over 10-15 minutes. If a ref in biddy league were to call every single grab, push, hold that happens in biddy league (yes, those can happen frequently in biddy), then you would have little kids shooting 1-and-1's and in the double bonus with several minutes left in each half. For a biddy league director, that can be disastrous from a time management perspective if a game has a bunch of trips to the free throw line when it comes to little kids. They move slow, they often don't have the "where do we need to be lined up for FT's" quite down yet, you have coaches taking their time making substitutions etc. Since most biddy leagues run schedules where there are five-to-seven games in a gym on a certain day (Saturday or Sunday), it only takes one game that is backed up due to stoppages on the clock (e.g. FT's) to have a domino effect on the rest of the day.

In biddy, unless the game is tight and there is still 'something to play for' from a win/loss perspective (e.g. if it's a four point game with a few minutes left) then the only thing that calling non-detrimental fouls does is it invites drama and angry parents in a situation that can frankly go without it. Sure, the same can be said for JR high, JV and maybe varsity; but since a lot of biddy leagues use the same couple refs calling games for the same handful of teams over a 5-6 week period, as a ref (whether you want to engage in it or not) you can end up on the receiving end of some seriously ugly feuding and nastiness that will just come back the next week and the week after all because you called a certain kid for a shove.
Two 20 minute halves with running clock.

clevelandbrowns#1
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by clevelandbrowns#1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:45 pm

Biddy ball? Where did that come from?

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by formerfcfan » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:47 pm

clevelandbrowns#1 wrote:Biddy ball? Where did that come from?
In reference to the comment on why girls may think they can get away with fouls if they aren't called at lower levels. Wasn't meant as a derail, just that comment stood out to me & wanted to add to the thought.
Glory, glory to the Irish.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by reds4life » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:49 pm

baseball16 wrote:Question:

Do you want to see a game with 40-50 fouls called or a game with 10-20 fouls called and Flow of the game is a lot better??

See, Fans want this: If it's too rough they want every ticky tack call to be called. However, Refs call it this way, then they start yelling to let them play. Happens every time. Hard to have it both ways.

Reffing is fun and enjoyable for many of us. It allows us to stay in the game and be a part of it. I highly encourage anyone to take the class and begin reffing. (Demand continues to be high) You will open your eyes to more of the game and flow of the game.
I think if you use officiating as a teaching tool at the lower levels then it improves the level of play as players get older. So, yes, call it according to the rules. I choose the former not the latter. Kids need to learn the correct way to play the game. I love to see teams get in the bonus in biddy ball and Jr high. It makes kids and coaches accountable for hacking, reaching, and grabbing. It's really prevalent on the girls side right now and needs to be improved.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by mhs95_06 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:58 pm

Ed Ott wrote:
formerfcfan wrote:
reds4life wrote:I think this is true. I also think it's worse in girls basketball. Way too much reaching, grabbing, pushing, holding,etc. A boys game is so much cleaner with less fouls being called. I think it starts at the lower levels where apparently refs don't think girls are talented enough to play by the actual rules and thus the game gets called differently. Then, the girls get by with it and then it progresses from there.

In my experience, girls basketball at the sub-varsity level (JV; Jr High and middle school) is generally the hardest to ref. There is a lot of sloppy play, such as turnovers; double dribbles; bad defense; hacking etc. Anything 7th grade and up, it's imperative to call like you would a regular game... even if it means the game moves so as molasses.

But, for biddy level it is different. Yes, you should call biddy games like you would a regular game. Should being that since the league promises to coaches they use OHSAA certified refs, they are going to have competent reffing that enforces and calls the travels and grabbing and what not. Does expectation always meet reality? No; especially not when biddy league directors prioritize a game finishing in its 50 minute time slot over a game that is called completely (or near completely) correct that goes over 10-15 minutes. If a ref in biddy league were to call every single grab, push, hold that happens in biddy league (yes, those can happen frequently in biddy), then you would have little kids shooting 1-and-1's and in the double bonus with several minutes left in each half. For a biddy league director, that can be disastrous from a time management perspective if a game has a bunch of trips to the free throw line when it comes to little kids. They move slow, they often don't have the "where do we need to be lined up for FT's" quite down yet, you have coaches taking their time making substitutions etc. Since most biddy leagues run schedules where there are five-to-seven games in a gym on a certain day (Saturday or Sunday), it only takes one game that is backed up due to stoppages on the clock (e.g. FT's) to have a domino effect on the rest of the day.

In biddy, unless the game is tight and there is still 'something to play for' from a win/loss perspective (e.g. if it's a four point game with a few minutes left) then the only thing that calling non-detrimental fouls does is it invites drama and angry parents in a situation that can frankly go without it. Sure, the same can be said for JR high, JV and maybe varsity; but since a lot of biddy leagues use the same couple refs calling games for the same handful of teams over a 5-6 week period, as a ref (whether you want to engage in it or not) you can end up on the receiving end of some seriously ugly feuding and nastiness that will just come back the next week and the week after all because you called a certain kid for a shove.
Two 20 minute halves with running clock.
Exactly, as they learn, the more of the 2 20 min halves they can play rather than have play stopped.

REFEREE11
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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by REFEREE11 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:40 pm

It's never consistent but I can say that people see things from their angle in the gym than the way refs might see it. Refs want to do a good job to get future games. They are on spotlight especially in tourney play.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by baseball16 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:59 am

REFEREE11 wrote:It's never consistent but I can say that people see things from their angle in the gym than the way refs might see it. Refs want to do a good job to get future games. They are on spotlight especially in tourney play.
I think it should get even tighter when it comes to being in the spotlight. I officiate about 25 boys games and 14 girls games this past year. However, not once was I ever evaluated. I think we should be evaluated 2-3 times per year. Start Weeding out (Even if it's me) some of the guys that do not need to be officiating varsity basketball games. This would only make the games, myself, and the crew I work with better.
How do you do this? Not sure? Maybe assignors go around to games and evaluate.
I am friends with a guy in the Central District and he said they are evaluated 3-5 times a year. If you don't show improvement you will not be officiating the following year. Nor will you get tournament games.
Go to the Convo, it's the same guys over and over again. Not that 95% of them are not deserving, but I am sure some are there on name alone.
Also, I saw past tournament games that the official doesn't even run to get into position nor care to even try. That is what many people see and that leaves a bad impression on the rest of the crews that work their tail off!!

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Birdman » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:11 pm

I officiated in Kentucky and Ohio ( OVC ) for years, in Ky. we were evaluated four times a year, in Ohio I never was. I watch about 15 high school games a yr now and I hate to say the officials around here OVC are not very good. You talked about weeding them out you can't because they need officials the numbers are way down.

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Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ground Buck » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:25 pm

I agree with the one guy who said something about experience helps refs learn to "manage the game." My favorite refs are the ones who can manage the crowd too. The best ones walk onto the court looking for someone to throw out, just to set the tone. They then glare at the players and anyone who questions anything they do. Yes, and rabbit ears are a prerequisite for any chance to be called the best. :mrgreen:

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