Questions about officiating

[wobycat]

I see from time to time people blaming officiating for the outcome especially on the away team. I have two questions on that.

1. Do you feel like it truly dictates the winner of the game, as in, it costs them a win?

2. Do you feel that officials actually give intentional "home cooking?"

[Orange and Brown]

I see from time to time people blaming officiating for the outcome especially on the away team. I have two questions on that.

1. Do you feel like it truly dictates the winner of the game, as in, it costs them a win?

2. Do you feel that officials actually give intentional "home cooking?"

99.99999% of the time my answer to both questions is no.
However, when you go to a school that uses the exact same officiating crew almost every single game then you notice a bias toward that team.

That's why I'm glad we use an assigner.

[Beergogglebluez]

There’s going to be bad calls and it happens every game. There not perfect and from what I’ve seen you could probably call a hold every play or some kind off pass interference. Ironton seems to have a ton of penalties this year. Not sure if the crews had a part in it or just a young team working kinks out. Over the years I been to some places and had calls that made me think there’s no way that happened. I’m from Portsmouth so we never get any calls lol. Are there corrupt refs I’m sure there is. But there for the most part doing the best they can.

[FANOSPORTS]

There’s going to be bad calls and it happens every game. There not perfect and from what I’ve seen you could probably call a hold every play or some kind off pass interference. Ironton seems to have a ton of penalties this year. Not sure if the crews had a part in it or just a young team working kinks out. Over the years I been to some places and had calls that made me think there’s no way that happened. I’m from Portsmouth so we never get any calls lol. Are there corrupt refs I’m sure there is. But there for the most part doing the best they can.

Yep and until they find a way to put robots with virtual sensors on the field or in the booth the human element will always be there.

[Beergogglebluez]

There’s going to be bad calls and it happens every game. There not perfect and from what I’ve seen you could probably call a hold every play or some kind off pass interference. Ironton seems to have a ton of penalties this year. Not sure if the crews had a part in it or just a young team working kinks out. Over the years I been to some places and had calls that made me think there’s no way that happened. I’m from Portsmouth so we never get any calls lol. Are there corrupt refs I’m sure there is. But there for the most part doing the best they can.

Yep and until they find a way to put robots with virtual sensors on the field or in the booth the human element will always be there.

I always try to give the benefit of the doubt. 4 guys watching 22 kids and hundreds of angles is hard. If pro officials can be bought off I’m sure the average joe can too but around here I’ve never seen anything like that. Bad calls sure. And when your on the side that’s losing and having flags thrown it’s easy to start throwing blame lol. Denial I call it

[BobcatQB]

AND, please consider that what you think you saw from the stands or the sideline didn't actually happen that way from the on-field view. Absolutely officials miss calls, 5 guys can't see everything. However, most people don't know the rules and most certainly don't have a good vantage point, especially from the stands. Just because you think it's a bad call doesn't mean it is.

[svac83]

I say no and no even though sometimes you get a bad call late in game that is hard to overcome. But if you would of executed at other parts of game then the call would of not mattered.

I think officials are occasionally guilty of buying into a teams reputation and this creates a underlying not intentional bias. I think a team that as known as physical and hard hitting gets benifit if doubt on some hits. A team with a great pass defense gets away with a little more contact then some other teams. Teams with a great offensive line gets away with a little more holding and so on.

Teams known to be undisplined get flags thrown easier. I think it would be impossible not to get caught up in this a little.

[formerfcfan]

Regarding the second point: well, not really, but...

There are schools who do great jobs of accommodating refs, as they pay in cash (on the spot), provide good facilities and maybe throw in a water bottle or two. There are schools who, on the other hand, do a crappy job hosting and paying their refs and those reputations and experiences can carry on for a while. These, in turn, (can) create attitudes and biases toward certain schools — biases, mind you, that the ref may not even realize they had when it comes time to make a call (implicit bias.)

[Hylander]

Yes and no.

I never understood how anybody could believe an official can’t make the difference in a game. They can make calls that take points off the board or put teams at unreasonable disadvantages. The integrity of the game is in their hands. If they consistently call holding on one end and not the other, the two teams are essentially playing different games with different rules. So yes, officials can dictate the winner of a game.

However, I don’t think they ever consciously throw the game. I’ve officiated some soccer matches before, and, while you do have your subconscious biases, you don’t purposefully act on them. There are a bunch of factors that come into play, like the demeanor of the coaches and players, the volume of the crowd, lighting, even something like the weather.

I usually give the benefit of the doubt to referees because I don’t think anybody ever comes into the game wanting to favor one team over the other, but you are mistaken if you think that they can’t make game-changing calls.

[MttaFan]

I say no and no even though sometimes you get a bad call late in game that is hard to overcome. But if you would of executed at other parts of game then the call would of not mattered.

I think officials are occasionally guilty of buying into a teams reputation and this creates a underlying not intentional bias. I think a team that as known as physical and hard hitting gets benifit if doubt on some hits. A team with a great pass defense gets away with a little more contact then some other teams. Teams with a great offensive line gets away with a little more holding and so on.

Teams known to be undisplined get flags thrown easier. I think it would be impossible not to get caught up in this a little.

I'm retired from officiating but worked 14 years in the region. What SVAC83 says is absolutely accurate.
I would add that 95% of officials do the best job they absolutely can, but like in every job there are always some who just aren't that good or don't have the right attitude for the job. I've never known of a local official trying to decide a game with a call.

We miss calls, players make mistakes, coaches call the wrong plays. It happens. If it's a hold in the first quarter, we try to make sure it's a hold in the fourth quarter, but we do make mistakes.

One thing that I think is important to note that I was always asked is about coaches who yell and complain at every call. Officials usually tune them out from the beginning, and are less, or even unwilling, to listen to them when they have a complaint. They don't get favorable calls for screaming. When a coach who rarely complains questions a call, you listen. I wish all coaches on the high school level would understand that.

[sapientia et veritas]

1. Do you feel like it truly dictates the winner of the game, as in, it costs them a win?

If you haven't seen a game where the outcome was decided by bad officiating, then you probably haven't been to enough games. If you think it happens more than maybe 1% of the time then you're either stupid, blind, ignorant of the rules, or a delusional fan of a hapless team. When you follow high school football, you have to accept the limitations. The officials are part-timers. They're probably the slowest guys on the field. Some of the rules are confusing. Many of the rules are not objective. Tight man coverage twenty yards down the sideline always looks like pass interference. With confusing offenses, it's hard for officials to make the run/pass switch at the right time all the time.

2. Do you feel that officials actually give intentional "home cooking?"

I think this is completely absurd. There is reputational bias. A team known to get chippy is to going to get iffy personal fouls early because that's necessary to keep it under control.

[Ironman92]

There is one crew that has been at Jackson for years and years....when I see them I would rather the dads of the opposing plsyers would take their place.

There is another guy on another football crew that also seems to do every other Jackson home basketball game. I just shake my head. Seems like he is at more games than I am....no homering worries with him lol

There are some very good officials in and around the area. Everyone is gonna miss calls and even have bad days/games. Worse in basketball than football.

[VetteMan]

I think for the most part, most try to do a good job. Most of the time at the football games, I'm either to far away to even know who the officials are. We also know that some are a lot better than others. We don't usually remember the good ones, but we can go through half a season of basketball, and we never forget the bad ones. It's a hard job, a job most of us would never be able to do. I also think there are a few that would rather make the game about themselves sometimes. I hope I'm wrong on this, but I also think that there are a few that do have biases again'st not only some coaches, but the fans as well.

[farmer]

When a ref walks out with his son on parents night. Seems to bring up home cooking even if it is not.

Back before most games were on good video. Some were able to get by with a lot more than they are now. When you watch a college or pro game. The fans look up to the Big Screen at replays. You hear the fans from one team completely against the call and the fans from the other team completely for the call.

I do remember a game in 1998 where the home town radio station announcers were talking about how the visiting team was getting screwed with over 25 penalties and multiple TD's called back. One ref threatened to throw the head coach's wife out. Who was on the other side of the fence on the track.

[greygoose]

Yes and no.

I never understood how anybody could believe an official can’t make the difference in a game. They can make calls that take points off the board or put teams at unreasonable disadvantages. The integrity of the game is in their hands. If they consistently call holding on one end and not the other, the two teams are essentially playing different games with different rules. So yes, officials can dictate the winner of a game.

However, I don’t think they ever consciously throw the game. I’ve officiated some soccer matches before, and, while you do have your subconscious biases, you don’t purposefully act on them. There are a bunch of factors that come into play, like the demeanor of the coaches and players, the volume of the crowd, lighting, even something like the weather.

I usually give the benefit of the doubt to referees because I don’t think anybody ever comes into the game wanting to favor one team over the other, but you are mistaken if you think that they can’t make game-changing calls.

So because one team is getting all of the holding calls means the other team is holding too?? I've been part of games where we've gotten 5-6 holding penalties and when we go back and look at the tape you know what 4-5 was legit calls, and also watched where we could've gotten called for an additional 2-3 and didn't. Seen the other team be more disciplined about their holding, maybe it wasn't out on the edge in plain site and they get 1-2 calls compared to our 5-6. Doesn't mean the refs simply went out of their way to find holding on 1 team compared to another. Teams that run the edges get out in space you'll see more holding calls as defenders are pulling away and it throws the blocker off, those smash mouth straight ahead teams you see less holding calls typically. Everyone is bunched in it's hard to see and as long as they're inside the shoulders and the player isn't seen with jersey pull you won't see holding. Everyone is taught to hold on some level but you do it without getting called some teams are better at it then others. Calls I run into the most are fumbles, was a runner down before the ball came out wasn't he type of stuff. That is where the human aspect comes into play or possible bias towards a team. Bottom line is there's what 80-100 plays throughout an entire game if you walk away thinking the officials cost you a win because of 3-4 penalty calls then you simply are just blinded by the fact your team got beat plain and simple. As I mentioned get back with me on the turnover aspect of it, as I watched a game where it happened at midfield 1-1 tackle and ball carriers bottom half of his body is down ball comes out and they say it's a turnover.

[Proud_Pirate63]

https://burgsports.smugmug.com/Sports/F ... -Dtt788s/A


And sometimes things aren’t called that should be. This tackle was made out towards the flat. More than one referee should have seen it, but not one them called a horse collar tackle or a face mask. Ball carrier’s helmet was ripped off his head at the end of this play.

[Hylander]

So because one team is getting all of the holding calls means the other team is holding too?? I've been part of games where we've gotten 5-6 holding penalties and when we go back and look at the tape you know what 4-5 was legit calls, and also watched where we could've gotten called for an additional 2-3 and didn't. Seen the other team be more disciplined about their holding, maybe it wasn't out on the edge in plain site and they get 1-2 calls compared to our 5-6. Doesn't mean the refs simply went out of their way to find holding on 1 team compared to another. Teams that run the edges get out in space you'll see more holding calls as defenders are pulling away and it throws the blocker off, those smash mouth straight ahead teams you see less holding calls typically. Everyone is bunched in it's hard to see and as long as they're inside the shoulders and the player isn't seen with jersey pull you won't see holding. Everyone is taught to hold on some level but you do it without getting called some teams are better at it then others. Calls I run into the most are fumbles, was a runner down before the ball came out wasn't he type of stuff. That is where the human aspect comes into play or possible bias towards a team. Bottom line is there's what 80-100 plays throughout an entire game if you walk away thinking the officials cost you a win because of 3-4 penalty calls then you simply are just blinded by the fact your team got beat plain and simple. As I mentioned get back with me on the turnover aspect of it, as I watched a game where it happened at midfield 1-1 tackle and ball carriers bottom half of his body is down ball comes out and they say it's a turnover.

I think I get where you're coming from, but I'm not 100% sure I made my point very clear.

What you described was situational. If you have one team using a ground-and-pound approach and the other running a spread, then it's understandable that one may be getting more holding calls than the other. However, in a situation where both teams are running similar offenses, are of equal discipline and are using techniques that could be called holding on any play, you will likely still see one of them be penalized more than the other. Again, this could be for any number of reasons. Maybe one of them has a bad reputation and the officials, in the back of their mind, are just waiting for them to mess up. Maybe one player is getting all of the flags because he's the biggest guy on the line and the easiest to spot. Regardless, with this, you can still encounter a situation where the official can change the game.

Imagine a scenario where two teams are playing nearly flawless football, going back and forth for four quarters. Team A scores a touchdown with two minutes remaining on 4th down. There was a clear hold on the line, but the official's view was slightly impeded by the running back splitting the middle. He didn't intentionally miss the call, but it was extremely obvious to everybody else in the stadium that it happened. Team B then gets the ball, and is also forced into a 4th down situation. They run and score on the exact same play, but this time the official is positioned slightly to the left and sees the clear hold. He throws the flag, the team runs a 4th-and-long, and is stopped to lose the game.

In that situation, both teams were equal for nearly four full quarters, then ran the exact same play in the same situation and both scored, but one was penalized while the other was not. You can't go back and say "you should have performed better then," because, in the end, both teams SHOULD have been equal at the end of each drive. This is a very specific example, but I think it gets my point across that even two decisions by the officials can swing the game one way or the other while the officials were victims of bad circumstance.

I think turnovers are incredibly situational as well. They can happen at any given moment so it's hard for an official to be in the perfect place to see the play break down. I think a team can sell a turnover really well too. Without clear vision and no replay to go by, sometimes the reaction of the players on the field is enough to tell you what happened. If one team is celebrating and the other is dejected, you're more likely to award the ball to the celebrating team, even if the player was down before the fumble.

[greygoose]

So because one team is getting all of the holding calls means the other team is holding too?? I've been part of games where we've gotten 5-6 holding penalties and when we go back and look at the tape you know what 4-5 was legit calls, and also watched where we could've gotten called for an additional 2-3 and didn't. Seen the other team be more disciplined about their holding, maybe it wasn't out on the edge in plain site and they get 1-2 calls compared to our 5-6. Doesn't mean the refs simply went out of their way to find holding on 1 team compared to another. Teams that run the edges get out in space you'll see more holding calls as defenders are pulling away and it throws the blocker off, those smash mouth straight ahead teams you see less holding calls typically. Everyone is bunched in it's hard to see and as long as they're inside the shoulders and the player isn't seen with jersey pull you won't see holding. Everyone is taught to hold on some level but you do it without getting called some teams are better at it then others. Calls I run into the most are fumbles, was a runner down before the ball came out wasn't he type of stuff. That is where the human aspect comes into play or possible bias towards a team. Bottom line is there's what 80-100 plays throughout an entire game if you walk away thinking the officials cost you a win because of 3-4 penalty calls then you simply are just blinded by the fact your team got beat plain and simple. As I mentioned get back with me on the turnover aspect of it, as I watched a game where it happened at midfield 1-1 tackle and ball carriers bottom half of his body is down ball comes out and they say it's a turnover.

I think I get where you're coming from, but I'm not 100% sure I made my point very clear.

What you described was situational. If you have one team using a ground-and-pound approach and the other running a spread, then it's understandable that one may be getting more holding calls than the other. However, in a situation where both teams are running similar offenses, are of equal discipline and are using techniques that could be called holding on any play, you will likely still see one of them be penalized more than the other. Again, this could be for any number of reasons. Maybe one of them has a bad reputation and the officials, in the back of their mind, are just waiting for them to mess up. Maybe one player is getting all of the flags because he's the biggest guy on the line and the easiest to spot. Regardless, with this, you can still encounter a situation where the official can change the game.

Imagine a scenario where two teams are playing nearly flawless football, going back and forth for four quarters. Team A scores a touchdown with two minutes remaining on 4th down. There was a clear hold on the line, but the official's view was slightly impeded by the running back splitting the middle. He didn't intentionally miss the call, but it was extremely obvious to everybody else in the stadium that it happened. Team B then gets the ball, and is also forced into a 4th down situation. They run and score on the exact same play, but this time the official is positioned slightly to the left and sees the clear hold. He throws the flag, the team runs a 4th-and-long, and is stopped to lose the game.

In that situation, both teams were equal for nearly four full quarters, then ran the exact same play in the same situation and both scored, but one was penalized while the other was not. You can't go back and say "you should have performed better then," because, in the end, both teams SHOULD have been equal at the end of each drive. This is a very specific example, but I think it gets my point across that even two decisions by the officials can swing the game one way or the other while the officials were victims of bad circumstance.

I think turnovers are incredibly situational as well. They can happen at any given moment so it's hard for an official to be in the perfect place to see the play break down. I think a team can sell a turnover really well too. Without clear vision and no replay to go by, sometimes the reaction of the players on the field is enough to tell you what happened. If one team is celebrating and the other is dejected, you're more likely to award the ball to the celebrating team, even if the player was down before the fumble.

I get your example but like you said in 1 case the official was positioned to see it and the other he wasn't, not on the official if he sees both he calls both. It's just to be that evenly played is just crazy, because as a coach you can go back and say yeah the official missed this play, but here's 15 different plays that if this lineman or this WR gets a better block we score a TD or we get the 1st down instead of punting. If my quarterback doesn't overthrow my WR and hits him in stride as he's wide open we score, if my corner doesn't miss this tackle or he bats this ball down we've got a turnover or we've stopped them on downs. I guess what I'm getting at is there's a larger majority of the plays are controlled by players, and even coaches in their play calling, then it is by the officials calling or not calling something they seen or everyone feels they should've seen. That and I've never been one that wanted to give my kids or players the ability to place blame on an official. Take control of the situation and don't let it be up to someone else, perform better on the other plays so it doesn't come down to what seems like 2-3 crucial calls that some feel cost you the game. Just my opinion

[Older bird]

Back to original question
1. Can they cost a team a game, more than likely it was a bad coaching decision that really cost ur team the game
2. Enjoy now going to games at schools I know use an assigner because I know the stripes on field really could care less who is home or away. I know TVC Ohio even uses assigner for there JV games

[allamericanironman]

I see from time to time people blaming officiating for the outcome especially on the away team. I have two questions on that.

1. Do you feel like it truly dictates the winner of the game, as in, it costs them a win?

2. Do you feel that officials actually give intentional "home cooking?"

Buddy I have played in over 80 games had it happen in gallia academy called back winning touchdown. And one other time in college. It absolutely is possible one bad apple can spoil it for all. If the same person makes several bad calls that is usually the tall tell. Another thing galli fumbled clear as day gallia was not cheated 2 weeks ago. There are bad calls every game but you have to look for the one at the end when it matters.