Logan(21) @ (43)Chillicothe

[Paladin]

Tell you a quick story -- I was an All-SEOAL and All SEO. District player at Logan. I quit the team in pre-season camp as a Jr. and was the STARTER in practices. I had a position coach I hated. He was a di ck. didn't stay long in coaching and he left to become a school administrator. My Dad found out and marched me back in and in front of the Head ,coach , I told him I would play another position ( different coach), wanted to play but wouldn't (said right in front of the other coach) play for the other coach. The coach moved me, I excelled and we won in what could have been a down year. Lost only 3 as a Senior. I would never have gone to college and, become a teacher and coach if things had not worked out. It takes more than knowing Xs and Os, evaluating talent and getting it in the right positions. Get an azzhole involved and he can ruin a program, especially if it goes on and a reputation builds. Just but one way to kill a program.

[loganlocos]

Lots of good discussion here without unwarranted criticism and critiques.


As usual, I'll stick up for the staff a bit. Almost the whole staff has been around for decades. Maybe you could argue they have become stale, but as far as chasing kids off, I don't think that's the problem. At least at the HS level.

I also think Burke comes off as an intelligent thoughtful guy - I think he does a lot of things right. From my interactions and observations - I think he is fair with the kids. I've seen some of the coaches Paladin has talked about - the screamer who doesn't know how to communicate or teach. I don't see that in this high school staff.


At the junior high level, I know the 8th grade coaches are respected former players.



On to the youth level - Logan has almost always struggled here. I'm not in the community anymore, so I can't speak to who/what/whee/when of the current youth development - whether we are talking Tomahawks or elsewhere.

I graduated in 2002 at at that time the Tomahawks program was still young. It did help develop the core of the undefeated 2000 and 2001 teams. I think that Freeman and Miller, who ran Tomahawks after Tim Holloway I believe started the program, built an excellent program that developed the core of the teams in the mid to late 2000s, including the 2008-2009 undefeated teams.

I have no idea whether Tomahawks is still a part of the development of youth football players.

I DO know that the Varsity staff has never been involved in the youth development and that when I was still in town the coaches borderline shunned the program. Is that still a problem? I'm not the right person to ask.

[Ground Buck]

Tell you a quick story -- I was an All-SEOAL and All SEO. District player at Logan. I quit the team in pre-season camp as a Jr. and was the STARTER in practices. I had a position coach I hated. He was a di ck. didn't stay long in coaching and he left to become a school administrator. My Dad found out and marched me back in and in front of the Head ,coach , I told him I would play another position ( different coach), wanted to play but wouldn't (said right in front of the other coach) play for the other coach. The coach moved me, I excelled and we won in what could have been a down year. Lost only 3 as a Senior. I would never have gone to college and, become a teacher and coach if things had not worked out. It takes more than knowing Xs and Os, evaluating talent and getting it in the right positions. Get an azzhole involved and he can ruin a program, especially if it goes on and a reputation builds. Just but one way to kill a program.

Thanks. I remembered you before telling us you were really good back in the 60's. But didn't remember just how good. It's nice to be reminded now and again.

[loganlocos]

As to the talent level - it's not where it was in 2000s, but I also don't believe talent was a mismatch in three of Logan's four games. TV was a pretty level playing field and Logan was better than Meigs. Sheridan probably was an overall better football team, but I don't think 44-7 is a complete indication of talent.

I do think Logan might lack overall football intelligence - and sometimes the attitude you need to make talent count. Do we have guys who want to BEAT the man across from them? Not just execute their job in a given scheme, but the desire to outsmart and out muscle that player. To make them physically submit. To me that was a character of Logan football under Perry and Amyx.

On the intelligence front, I think our players understand a game plan, understand their job, and execute to a reasonable level. But when it takes making decisions beyond the game plan - when players have to sort out broken plays or get caught out of position, I don't think Logan responds well. Part of that is certainly experience.

And I don't know how you teach/coach those things, certainly at a Varsity level.


And FWIW - I don't think a 1-3 record should be shocking based on the talent/experience and the schedule. I DO however, think that the margin of victory in ALL four games IS shocking. The three losses should have been much closer games. And Logan should not have let Meigs back in the game. That's where I think a lot the angst is coming from.

[Bring the Heat]

Is Harris back for Chillicothe? Don't know the first name but he has some skills for sure.
thanks

[Paladin]

That I would agree with, Locos. Losses are one thing, but to get buried is dumbfounding. I never gave it much thought until my own kids ( and grandkids) played youth football. I never played until 7th grade as Logan didn't have youth programs then. I had two sons who were pure jocks... Outstanding all star players who were college recruited . Both played youth tackle football, starting in Zanesville and then up here. Then along came the grandkids and while there were area tackle youth programs, the sons had their kids in an outstanding flag league program sponsored by the NFL in Youngstown. It was an eye opener . Emphasis was on skill development , passing and catching. Some runs but with out pads, contact wasn't an issue. The "graduates" of that program are now the stars in Warren-Youngstown area football circles and most are targets of college coaches. I highly recommend it and tackle football can wait until 7th grade. You lose nothing, gain players who otherwise wouldn't play and get them highly developed. If I was the HC, I would insist on it. The difference is night and day.

Search for " Youngstown Youth Flag League Association"

[1987chieftains]

On the intelligence front, I think our players understand a game plan, understand their job, and execute to a reasonable level. But when it takes making decisions beyond the game plan - when players have to sort out broken plays or get caught out of position, I don't think Logan responds well. Part of that is certainly experience.

I think that's the biggest issue and your right also on only experience can help that when you don't have the raw savvy football player that those instincts come natural too.

[TRENCHFOOT]

I DO however, think that the margin of victory in ALL four games IS shocking. The three losses should have been much closer games.

Definitely agree.

[loganlocos]

Is Harris back for Chillicothe? Don't know the first name but he has some skills for sure.
thanks

I think he played some last week against Hartley.

[loganlocos]

That I would agree with, Locos. Losses are one thing, but to get buried is dumbfounding. I never gave it much thought until my own kids ( and grandkids) played youth football. I never played until 7th grade as Logan didn't have youth programs then. I had two sons who were pure jocks... Outstanding all star players who were college recruited . Both played youth tackle football, starting in Zanesville and then up here. Then along came the grandkids and while there were area tackle youth programs, the sons had their kids in an outstanding flag league program sponsored by the NFL in Youngstown. It was an eye opener . Emphasis was on skill development , passing and catching. Some runs but with out pads, contact wasn't an issue. The "graduates" of that program are now the stars in Warren-Youngstown area football circles and most are targets of college coaches. I highly recommend it and tackle football can wait until 7th grade. You lose nothing, gain players who otherwise wouldn't play and get them highly developed. If I was the HC, I would insist on it. The difference is night and day.

Search for " Youngstown Youth Flag League Association"

I definitely don't disagree.

While a lot of Logan's best players did come through the Tomahawks, there are a boatload of kids who only played in the Logan Rec Flag Football League. Including the Angle boys.


But it's been a long time since anyone from the staff has been involved in the Flag league or the Tomahawks program I think. A lot of volunteers and parents in those programs, who are all well intention-ed - but do they have the skills to properly teach technics? Are they teaching the right sorts of skills and technics that the Varsity staff expects?

I have no idea.

[Truth&fiction]

I think that there is to much emphasis on winning and not teaching the proper techniques . Also some are not given the chance at a certain positions . Parent coaches try and do a good job with the limited time available but normally the coaches son is the Quarterback or the Running back and most plays go thru them . A good youth program has to have structure that promotes development and commitment to a fair and positive experience . I also think like the above that Flag Football that teaches technique is a good starter .

[Raider6309]

Yeah weird Logan can't compete with Sheridan or Teays Valley.

[Paladin]

As I look back on it now, youth tackle programs were a waste of time and you ran risk of injury to young kids. We all risk injury while we play but should postpone that until bodies mature more and professional coaches can correctly teach techniques for blocking and tackling. Takes little time for that to develope. But skills with passing and catching need refinement and come over years of repetition. Looking at the area stats leaders in passing, receiving and rushing, it's a who's who from the flag league. The tackle league produced few stars, often burned the kids out or injured them needing surgery to correct or chasing them off for another sport (soccer). Flag league is 7on7. On the one grandsons team, the QB, 4 WRs and 2 RBs are from the flag league. Five of them were all league last year as underclassmen. BTW, in flag league girls can play with boys teams and some are very good, lol

[Logangrad]

Lots of good discussion here without unwarranted criticism and critiques.


As usual, I'll stick up for the staff a bit. Almost the whole staff has been around for decades. Maybe you could argue they have become stale, but as far as chasing kids off, I don't think that's the problem. At least at the HS level.

I also think Burke comes off as an intelligent thoughtful guy - I think he does a lot of things right. From my interactions and observations - I think he is fair with the kids. I've seen some of the coaches Paladin has talked about - the screamer who doesn't know how to communicate or teach. I don't see that in this high school staff.


At the junior high level, I know the 8th grade coaches are respected former players.



On to the youth level - Logan has almost always struggled here. I'm not in the community anymore, so I can't speak to who/what/whee/when of the current youth development - whether we are talking Tomahawks or elsewhere.

I graduated in 2002 at at that time the Tomahawks program was still young. It did help develop the core of the undefeated 2000 and 2001 teams. I think that Freeman and Miller, who ran Tomahawks after Tim Holloway I believe started the program, built an excellent program that developed the core of the teams in the mid to late 2000s, including the 2008-2009 undefeated teams.

I have no idea whether Tomahawks is still a part of the development of youth football players.

I DO know that the Varsity staff has never been involved in the youth development and that when I was still in town the coaches borderline shunned the program. Is that still a problem? I'm not the right person to ask.

My first time posting on anything for Logan in a long time bc my responsibilities are focused elsewhere and prob my last. First time since 1997 I have had no vested interest as a member of media, or as a parent with a kid in the program. But I will say this as someone who was across from the youth program two nights ago with my son who chose Flag this season bc last year "wasn't fun to just get screamed at." I did see one or two current LHS coaches running things for the youth program. There are several former players from Logan helping out, including a few VERY GOOD former players who went on to college to play. So they would know the game and they have guys helping that know what the LHS program is doing and putting it in I would guess. The director of the youth program is a very passionate and dedicated guy who wants nothing but the best for the kids who are involved.

[dazed&confused]

A lot of things must come together to establish a solid run of success. Good fundamentals taught early on, a core group of athletes that come together and bond in those years, encouragement from parents, and support from the community. I witnessed the coming together of the group of kids that formed the nucleus of the 2007-2009 Logan program. As much as the coaching staff was able to bring out the best in them, there was minimal teaching that was needed when those kids hit the junior and senior high levels. They had a grasp of the game, and confidence in one another. They expected to win when they took the field. There were pure athletes and role players, leaders and foot soldiers. Everyone knew their job and did. There is no one thing that makes a difference between winning and losing. It is a number of things. I sometimes reflect back and think the whole community and teams took for granted all the work and the chemistry it took to achieve success. We all became spoiled and thought It was automatic. It's tough to regain an edge. It starts with the desire for excellence and a total commitment to achieve it.

[Abe Froman]

As I look back on it now, youth tackle programs were a waste of time and you ran risk of injury to young kids. We all risk injury while we play but should postpone that until bodies mature more and professional coaches can correctly teach techniques for blocking and tackling. Takes little time for that to develope. But skills with passing and catching need refinement and come over years of repetition. Looking at the area stats leaders in passing, receiving and rushing, it's a who's who from the flag league. The tackle league produced few stars, often burned the kids out or injured them needing surgery to correct or chasing them off for another sport (soccer). Flag league is 7on7. On the one grandsons team, the QB, 4 WRs and 2 RBs are from the flag league. Five of them were all league last year as underclassmen. BTW, in flag league girls can play with boys teams and some are very good, lol

^^^^^This^^^^^

No need for contact football for 3rd graders for crying out loud.

Well said Paladin, good post.

[Truth&fiction]

A lot of things must come together to establish a solid run of success. Good fundamentals taught early on, a core group of athletes that come together and bond in those years, encouragement from parents, and support from the community. I witnessed the coming together of the group of kids that formed the nucleus of the 2007-2009 Logan program. As much as the coaching staff was able to bring out the best in them, there was minimal teaching that was needed when those kids hit the junior and senior high levels. They had a grasp of the game, and confidence in one another. They expected to win when they took the field. There were pure athletes and role players, leaders and foot soldiers. Everyone knew their job and did. There is no one thing that makes a difference between winning and losing. It is a number of things. I sometimes reflect back and think the whole community and teams took for granted all the work and the chemistry it took to achieve success. We all became spoiled and thought It was automatic. It's tough to regain an edge. It starts with the desire for excellence and a total commitment to achieve it.

Very good post, right on and it seems to be coming from someone that knows. Not much teaching when they become JR and Sr. Smart coaches act more like a facilitator knowing they have a good product.

[cbolt]

We all became spoiled and thought It was automatic. It's tough to regain an edge.

Yep definitely agree with this!

[loganlocos]

A lot of things must come together to establish a solid run of success. Good fundamentals taught early on, a core group of athletes that come together and bond in those years, encouragement from parents, and support from the community. I witnessed the coming together of the group of kids that formed the nucleus of the 2007-2009 Logan program. As much as the coaching staff was able to bring out the best in them, there was minimal teaching that was needed when those kids hit the junior and senior high levels. They had a grasp of the game, and confidence in one another. They expected to win when they took the field. There were pure athletes and role players, leaders and foot soldiers. Everyone knew their job and did. There is no one thing that makes a difference between winning and losing. It is a number of things. I sometimes reflect back and think the whole community and teams took for granted all the work and the chemistry it took to achieve success. We all became spoiled and thought It was automatic. It's tough to regain an edge. It starts with the desire for excellence and a total commitment to achieve it.

The 07-09 group was spectacular - but it bookended a "decade of dominance" that start with the '98 Chiefs reclaiming the SEOAL title before the 2000-01 Chiefs had the first of back to back 10-0 seasons.

The class of 2002 - and the class of 2010 - both had 31-4 records in their three year Varsity careers.

In between those groups - Logan won three SEOAL titles in 5 years, made another playoff appearance, and never finished worse than 5-5 (despite some REALLY challenging schedules.)


But I definitely agree many took it for granted.

[dazed&confused]

I remember that 2000 team. Was in the stands when they handed a big old egg salad sandwich to Westerville South in the playoffs. I can only speak intimately to the latter group I mentioned. Whatever that formula for success was composed of, it can be done again. But it does not come easily. I also recall a 5-5 season when Logan won the SEOAL and that, too, laid the foundation for future success.